Its disgusting, it really is.

POSTED BY: Smartbutdumbblonde
UPDATED: Friday, August 4, 2006 05:13
VIEWED: 6387
PAGE 5 of 6

Quote:

---

Originally posted by HKCavalier:

More and more people are getting just a little bit saner (that's part of the reason the force-fetishists have upped the anti so much of late).

---

Death-throes of the Fundamentalist? Last gasp of the Hawkish?
Reaction to the threat of a possible Global Understanding?

Hmmm...could be.....

Violent Peacenik Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

So, seems to me that your arguments for and against anarchy are totally dependent on your abysmal assessment of human nature. What is it that makes y'all think human beings can't cooperate and get along? And don't tell me it's self-evident, look at history, blah-blah-blah. Is that how it is in your personal lives? Forget the pornography that passes for news coverage these days, are people so vicious and untrustworthy in your actual lives? Y'all look at history your way and I'll look at it mine.

---

Yep, they have been - not so much these days, but in dealing with other folk I've found that self-defense is necessary, regardless of the law.

Look, for example, some wacked out nutjob who's ingested his favorite mind altering substance of choice bashes in your front door at 3AM and is waving around a machete, howling... sure, you can dial 911, and wait, and wait, and wait... and hope he has no harm in mind... OR, you can draw, aim, and dial 911 left handed, and invite him to leave the premises immediately.

The thing is, words on paper do not protect one from the bad things in life, and that's all laws really are, aren't they ?

As for the idea that Anarchists see cooperation as an evil, this is a misunderstanding, people NATURALLY cooperate, most of em... as an experiment, try this.

Put something just out of your own reach in your office, and pick a random coworker, and ask them to hand it to you as they pass - do they do it ?

It's a natural instinct in most folk, as long as is does not unduly put them out, they'll give you a hand, sure.

With most folk unable, unwilling, or legally forbidden to defend themselves tho, it only takes ONE selfish, immoral prick to jam up the works and exploit a hundred.

That's a huge part of the problem.

The argument that over a certain number of people, organization becomes a necessary evil is a good point to make, and when the crowd reaches that limit, most Anarchic types start looking for somewhere else to be - again, one reason I am so all-fired for space exploration, space is a right big place.

In our Theoretical, I doubt if there would physically be room in our tiny little collective for enough population to cause this issue.

Oh, and Citizen ?

In the example I stated, when the smaller kid displayed intent and ability to even TRY to defend themself, skill or ability notwithstanding, the bigger kids immediately retreated, a very telling thing, yes ?

Even worse is they ran to the authority who had disarmed their victims in the first place, and insisted on that disarmament.

Now, just for a second, look at that world through the smaller kids eyes.

Who's side is government on, to his perception ?

Look at us trying to "disarm" iraq, or any of the situations in the middle east when you start taking weapons away from one side, like palestine, and giving huge amounts of them to the other ?

How is this better ?

Lemme make a HUGE reccommendation here -
Go read "The Weapon Shops of Isher" by A.E. Van Vogt.

"The right to buy weapons is the right to be free."

-Frem

NOTIFY: N  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by citizen:
Mal has the final say. The analogy at government level is a dictatorship, whether or not its iron fist is irrelevant.

---

Citizen, excuse me, but what the eff? I'm sorry. Mal is granted final say by his crew; their relationship is consentual and built upon mutual respect. He never once holds a gun to Inara's or Kaylee's or Zoe's or Wash's head. He has no "secret police" to keep the crew in line. People come and go from his crew at will. When he's disobeyed, no one's head is lopped off, even metaphorically.

So when a bunch of eight year old's pick a captain for their kick-ball team, they've created a model of the totalitarian state? No, they've created hierarchy. Is all hierarchy dictatorial?

I'm sorry, you're gonna have to come at this one again if I'm to understand how the heck you arrived at it. Perhaps one of you others who accept Citizen's analogy can straighten me out?

Quote:

---

Like it or not the Human individual and the Human Group are entirely different animals.

---

Y'know, I've had this kind of thinking drummed into me since I was a whee babe, but I've learned that the stuff that people have tried to drum into me is worth challenging. Individuals are capable of atrocity and so are groups. Individuals are capable of amazing generocity and love and so are groups. My take is that folks of a particular intellectual bent are frightened and alienated by the more emotional and instinctual actions which group dynamics tend to produce. It's this basic fear of the subconsious and instictual part of human nature which makes modern, urbanized man fear "the mob." The way I see it, mobs are reflective of individuals, minus, perhaps, a certain amount of impulse control. As individuals evolve, so do the groups they participate in. When was the last hanging you attended?

Quote:

---

But in a democracy is the government not at least partially reflective of the people?

---

Yes, democracy is more reflective of a healthy world view than, say, dictatorship. I'd say that people who express themselves democratically are prolly more healthy than those who participate in dictatorial systems. But a democracy is only as good, only as real, as its citizens make it. Trying to impose democracy on people who have no feel for it is utterly absurd. And anyone who thinks that as long as you have a lot of democratically arrived at laws on the books you have a democracy, is in for a rude awakening--if they awaken at all.

Democracy works because the people believe in it and nurture it by staying well informed and politically active. As information becomes more and more readily available, even unavoidable in the world, democracy becomes more and more possible. When less than half of a democracy's population vote, it's not really a democracy. At the moment. Give us time.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

But the human race, as a whole, will never return to the dark ages

---

This statement seems to assume that there has been a stead upward curve from 'darkness' to 'light'.

We've slipped back before; it seems naive to assume it can't happen again.

---

No real, healthy growth is ever steady and upward. Growth is a kind of imbalance and all organic systems have a tendancy toward homeostasis. So major growth in a particular area is always followed by a partial retreat or regression into a previous, more stable form. Growth is painful. I'd say that imagining growth as a steady unencumbered, one-dimentional rise is naive.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

We return you now to your regularly scheduled blood-bath, already in progress.

---

What bloodbath?

---

The one y'all focus your imaginations on to decide what can and cannot be accomplished by human beings. Inward processes stand in need of outward manifestation. What you expect will influence the outcome.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Citizen, excuse me, but what the eff? I'm sorry. Mal is granted final say by his crew; their relationship is consentual and built upon mutual respect. He never once holds a gun to Inara's or Kaylee's or Zoe's or Wash's head. He has no "secret police" to keep the crew in line. People come and go from his crew at will.

---

"We do not vote on my ship because my ship is not the ruttin' town hall!"

And Mal does pull a gun on the crew, in the film.

When it comes down to it Mal makes the decisions, and if push comes to shove the crew has no say. A dictatorship only requires a dictator, not secret police or anything else. It needs one person making all the decisions and everyone else following those orders, the reasons they do so, and the impetuous and whether they can leave if they don't like those orders is entirely irrelevant.

Quote:

---

When he's disobeyed, no one's head is lopped off, even metaphorically.

---

No but they do run the risk of being thrown out an airlock.

Quote:

---

So when a bunch of eight year old's pick a captain for their kick-ball team, they've created a model of the totalitarian state? No, they've created hierarchy. Is all hierarchy dictatorial?

---

No, they're enacting a miniature model of a non-totalitarian dictatorship, assuming one eight year old makes the decisions and the others follow.

Totalitarianism does not equal Dictatorship.

An office is a dictatorship, the boss makes the decisions and the workers obey, or they are fired. There's no secret police or Gulags there either.

The point was that Mal, a man who believes in allowing a person to go their own way, also recognises that Anarchy doesn't function within a group. If the crew of Serenity could just do their own thing Serenity would still be sitting in the second hand ship lot.

People have to have their freedoms curbed in order to coexist with other people, either by their own impulse or by outside influence. All I have been saying is that some people are not capable of curbing their own freedoms and impulses, and anarchy doesn't enforce this. This is one major reason why Anarchy will collapse unless you ensure only the 'right' kind of person is allowed 'in'. In which case we're no longer talking anarchism.

Quote:

---

Y'know, I've had this kind of thinking drummed into me since I was a whee babe, but I've learned that the stuff that people have tried to drum into me is worth challenging. Individuals are capable of atrocity and so are groups.

---

You can reliably model Human Group movement with flocking/herding algorithms, but not the movements of a single person. You can model human group reactions with mathematics and probability but not the actions of a single individual.

Propaganda has been shown to be effective against groups but not so effective against individuals. Groups of people and individuals behave differently, this isn't just philosophy or 'fear of the mob' it's observable from the real world.

Quote:

---

As individuals evolve, so do the groups they participate in. When was the last hanging you attended?

---

Societal group behaviours changing does not negate the prediction that groups will act differently to an individual. But to run with your above mob statement, the fact that we still have mobs, we still have riots in which individuals act in ways they'd find abhorrent as individuals goes someway to proving my point.

Quote:

---

I'd say that imagining growth as a steady unencumbered, one-dimentional rise is naive.

---

That's my point. The idea that we can't have another dark age is naive, the dark age it self was a period when we slipped back.

Quote:

---

The one y'all focus your imaginations on to decide what can and cannot be accomplished by human beings. Inward processes stand in need of outward manifestation. What you expect will influence the outcome.

---

Do you think violence has no bearing on possible societal collapse?

---

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

CTS- Coming up with a hypothetical example (in this case school bullying) and then using it to support your points is unusually self-referencing, don't you think?

So, to inject a little bit of reality into the discusion, I thought I'd post a link to EFFECTIVE school anti-bullying programs. BTW, altho many USAers cite Columbine as "the" wake-up call to the problem of bullying (reinforcing the notion that guns are somehow required preserve freedom) the actual source of attention came from Sweden, when in one year (1983) three kids committed suicide because of bullying. An anti-bullying program was sparked from those incidents, which has been adoopted and adapted worldwide. Being ignorant of what's going on in other countries, the USA tends to think of itself as "the model" for everything when in fact we're the Johnny-come-lately to this issue, and a model of nothing.

www.montcopa.org/eoc/OEP/PDFs/BullyingReport.pdf

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Actually, as far as I am aware of, the first inklings of trouble came from that 1978 NEA report, and the report you mention was known to them too - and they ignored them.

In the early 90's, the issue was brought up again by concerned folk, this time with some research and backing from the FBI cause they could reference the statistical data better, not for any enforcement reason, mind...

And it was made *abundantly* clear to the educational system that this downward slide into bullying and violence was going to lead to a mass-shooting or "other unfortunate incident" within the next five years.

And they were, again, ignored.

Most school systems STILL ignore the problem, and kids still die, most of them by their own hand (like Tempest Smith) and few folk care because of the way our society refuses to regard them as human beings - they're given the status of pets... beloved property, but property all the same, and are not treated, respected, or regarded as human beings till age of majority.

None too helpful that many school admins see their charge as operating a kennel or a prison, and damned well act it.. that makes an impact.

To not see children as human beings, or see them as some lesser thing than human, this must first be overcome for anything else to make a difference.

That's the root and core of the problem, in a nutshell.

I'll stop there, but believe me, nearly 30 years into THAT problem, and ain't no one listenin or actin on it yet, not in the states, nope.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by citizen:
"We do not vote on my ship because my ship is not the ruttin' town hall!"

And Mal does pull a gun on the crew, in the film.

When it comes down to it Mal makes the decisions, and if push comes to shove the crew has no say. A dictatorship only requires a dictator, not secret police or anything else. It needs one person making all the decisions and everyone else following those orders, the reasons they do so, and the impetuous and whether they can leave if they don't like those orders is entirely irrelevant.

---

So I gather that your definition of "dictatorship" is value neutral; nothing wrong with dictatorship if the dictator is a good guy. Can you name a single actual historical dictatorship that is in any way analogous to life on Serenity? Where are all the nice dictators who don't rule by fear and don't have secret police to enforce their control?

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

When he's disobeyed, no one's head is lopped off, even metaphorically.

---

No but they do run the risk of being thrown out an airlock.

---

To run with the silly political metaphor here: you're saying that capital punishment is inconsistent with any political system other than dictatorship? Jayne willfully threatened the lives of everyone on the ship for profit. Does it require "dictatorship" to punish criminals? This is silly. Mal was acting as an individual who's loved ones and way of life were grossly threatened by Jayne's actions. Mal is the head of no political body and has no political machine behind him. No, it's not the ruttin' town hall, it's Mal's life.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

So when a bunch of eight year old's pick a captain for their kick-ball team, they've created a model of the totalitarian state? No, they've created hierarchy. Is all hierarchy dictatorial?

---

No, they're enacting a miniature model of a non-totalitarian dictatorship, assuming one eight year old makes the decisions and the others follow.

---

So all hierarchy IS dictatorial. Wha'? So elected representatives who make all kinds of decisions without constantly checking with the electorate are dictators?

Quote:

---

The point was that Mal, a man who believes in allowing a person to go their own way, also recognises that Anarchy doesn't function within a group.

---

Thought you said anarchy could function in groups of up to a hundred.

Quote:

---

If the crew of Serenity could just do their own thing Serenity would still be sitting in the second hand ship lot.

People have to have their freedoms curbed in order to coexist with other people, either by their own impulse or by outside influence.

---

Oh, criminy, is this the old freedom vs. licence confusion? The tyranny of traffic lights? Just because people have to make practical choices that don't necessarily coincide with their slightest whim doesn't mean that they have no freedom, or even that their freedoms (in any political sense) are curbed. Practical reality must be taken into account if we want to achieve anything.

Consensus is not required for every decision that's made. Division of labor requires someone to keep track of the overall operation. Mal coordinates the group effort. If Mal had stepped too far out of line the crew would have checked him, but he never went too far. (I know, I know, "The movie, etc." Forgive me, but I didn't find the events of the movie consistent with the events of the series or compelling character development for anyone involved. I assume you're talking about the lame scene after Book's lame death? That whole thing was out of character and trumped up to keep the plot going, "increase tension," graft some kinda unconvincing "dark-side" onto an already plenty dark Mal or Joss knows what.)

Quote:

---

You can reliably model Human Group movement with flocking/herding algorithms, but not the movements of a single person. You can model human group reactions with mathematics and probability but not the actions of a single individual.

Propaganda has been shown to be effectiv

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME