Illegal Immigration- what to do?
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Friday, May 12, 2023 14:24
VIEWED: 9966
PAGE 5 of 9
Quote:
Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Fair enough. My assumptions were wrong.
* edited to add: I should say, my assumptions probably do not apply to you.
And, guess what, race relations in the US are pretty fk'd up.
Your BlSht assumptions about me deffinitly don't apply.
And, guess what, I never said they weren't.
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Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER
I'll repost what I added to the earlier post since we're cross posting.
As to me calling you a racist. I don't think I did that.
What I did was to ask about the environment you grew up in. Then I went on to speculate that attitudes about illegal immigration are shaped by the environment that people grow up in and described specific racist enviroments (sundown towns or suburbs) and that I would expect racist attitudes about immigrants to come from people who grew up in those racist environments.
By your responses, it appears that you probably did not grow up in a sundown town or suburb. So why would you think that I was directing the remainder of what I wrote as labelling you as racist? It wouldn't apply. You may or may not be a racist. I have no clue.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:Quote:
Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Fair enough. My assumptions were wrong.
* edited to add: I should say, my assumptions probably do not apply to you.
And, guess what, race relations in the US are pretty fk'd up.
Your BlSht assumptions about me deffinitly don't apply.
And, guess what, I never said they weren't.
---------------------------------------------
Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER
I'll repost what I added to the earlier post since we're cross posting.
As to me calling you a racist. I don't think I did that.
What I did was to ask about the environment you grew up in. Then I went on to speculate that attitudes about illegal immigration are shaped by the environment that people grow up in and described specific racist enviroments (sundown towns or suburbs) and that I would expect racist attitudes about immigrants to come from people who grew up in those racist environments.
By your responses, it appears that you probably did not grow up in a sundown town or suburb. So why would you think that I was directing the remainder of what I wrote as labelling you as racist? It wouldn't apply. You may or may not be a racist. I have no clue.
It's not so much that you directly label me a racist it's that you went on to "speculate" about the environment of my upbringing. By your line of questioning you infer form the begining that my choice in opinion might be racially motivated. Why would you automatically assume that because someone is against illegal immigration that race is a factor in thier discision.
I still stand by my original post. Which had nothing to do with race at all.
Quote:
Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
I'm curious as to what country everybody here is from or what age. I see alot of comments that show some of the people here don't have enough direct experience (such as worked in the manufacturing, construction,or service fields) or haven't done proper research on what our (the U.S) neighboring countries require for people to move to them. I suggest these links:
MEXICO IMMIGRATION:
http://www.mexperience.com/liveandwork/immigration.htm#ImmPolicy
CANADA IMMIGRATION:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/index.html
Look at these sites & see just what other countries require for immigration before stating how WE should just let peolpe in. ALSO if you don't live in the US you don't get to have a DAMN opinion about how we should respond to our immigration problem. Deal with your own by letting in as many people as you want & see what the results are. By the way I challenge anyone to find an industrialized country with a stable economy that has a working open border policy like the one suggested for the US.
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Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER
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SignyM and Soupcatcher,
This has to do with what the both of you have posted.
SignyM - I don't think you are a snob and this is the reason why: Suppose you are in your familiar neighborhood and a Japanese family moves in next door. They are well-educated, somewhat better off than you, but keep to themselves. To me that seems OK.
Now suppose rather than 1 family moving in, it is 20 families. They are all well-educated, better off than you, and keep to themselves speaking Japanese together but rarely addressing you in English. No so OK. The uncomfortable feeling I get isn't about their economic status or mine - or yours, I suspect.
Now suppose the large group of new-comers aren't Japanese, they are British. They are all well-educated, somewhat better off than you, and speak to you in English, when they do speak to you at all. They dress a little differently, have somewhat different social values and expectations etc. Not so uncomfortable as the large-scale Japanese influx, but not OK either.
Suppose you go to Japan - you are surrounded by Japanese. You immerse yourself in the experience with delight. So the issue with the Japanese 'invasion' of your neighborhood isn't specifically about being a cultural minority either.
When I was going to university the neighborhood was alive with people from everywhere around the globe, and I thought it was great !
So what is the difference between good and bad experiences with 'those others'?
Soupcatcher,
Perhaps some of what I'm imagining has to do with the influx of people who are 'different' into previously all-white neighborhoods. It may not necessarily be racist, but might be expressed as racists comments. (Snobby Japs. Snooty Brits.)
I wish HK would show up. He's really good at puzzling this out.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
It's not so much that you directly label me a racist it's that you went on to "speculate" about the environment of my upbringing. By your line of questioning you infer form the begining that my choice in opinion might be racially motivated. Why would you automatically assume that because someone is against illegal immigration that race is a factor in thier discision.
I still stand by my original post. Which had nothing to do with race at all.
I can see how you would get that impression from my comments.
To address the question you raise (and sort of touch on Signym's post): Why would I automatically assume that because someone is against illegal immigration that race is a factor in their decision? I'm not sure I completely buy your premise but I'll attempt to answer. It is one of the first thoughts that crosses my mind when the topic comes up, that's true. Automatic, no. But, and this is the important part, if the rhetoric that is used sounds anything like the rhetoric used by the Minutemen and their supporters then it causes my antenna to twitch. If it is a well laid out argument against illegal immigration that makes substantive points (like Signym's or other's posts) then I don't make the assumption.
My reasoning is pretty simple. Would this thread even exist if it hadn't been for the Minutemen doing their border patrol publicity stunt? Would we be having this discussion now? I believe the answer is no. The Minutemen are a bunch of different groups with ties to white supremacist organizations. They use much of the same language that white supremacists use when talking about illegal immigrants. They were given a substantial nationwide media platform and received an outpouring of support. This led to a nationwide discussion about illegal immigration, of which this thread is a small part. I think it's a worthwhile debate to have but I want to make damn certain that we don't use their racist framing or perpetuate their inaccuracies.
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If you give a damn about uSA, then speak in public to your City Council and propose this same ordinance.
Quote:
Small Pa. City Passes Law Against Illegals
By MARK SCOLFORO
The Associated Press
Thursday, July 13, 2006; 9:50 PM
HAZLETON, Pa. -- The City Council approved a law Thursday night designed to make this small city in northeastern Pennsylvania among the most hostile places in the U.S. for illegal immigrants to live or work.
The 4-to-1 vote came after nearly two hours of passionate debate. Opponents argued it was divisive and possibly illegal, but supporters said illegal immigrants' growing numbers have damaged the quality of life here.
"We must draw the line, and we are doing it tonight," Mayor Lou Barletta told a packed council chambers.
Barletta proposed the Illegal Immigration Relief Act last month as a response to what he said were Hazleton's problems with violent crime, crowded schools, hospital costs and the demand for services.
The ordinance would deny licenses to businesses that employ illegal immigrants, fine landlords $1,000 for each illegal immigrant discovered renting their properties, and require city documents to be in English only.
"The illegal citizens, I would recommend they leave," Barletta said after the meeting.
"What you see here tonight, really, is a city that wants to take back what America has given it," said the mayor, who said he wore a bulletproof vest to the meeting.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/13/AR20060713015
47.html
Great idea.
Here in Tennessee, our gangsters in govt profited by selling 250,000 driver licenses to illegal aliens. Tennessee copsters, prosecutors and judges refuse to arrest and deport illegal aliens arrested perping other crimes, since there's more profit. Traffic tickets profit copsters $500 for each illegal alien. Tennessee Driver License Handbooks are printed in Mexican language, and the test is given in Mexican by Tennessee Highway Patrol. When I go to a restaurant with my 70-year-old friend, he is carded for ID when buying a beer, but that same restaurant refuses to card illegal aliens, who sit next to us speaking only Mexican.
Jr Bush's GOP amnesty program will legalize 40-million criminals and invite another 200-million criminals to uSA in the next 10 years, according to Heritage Foundation. And the sheeple love it. Baaaaaa.
Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count.
—Robert A. Heinlein
FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv
www.piratenews.org
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hey Soup I appreciate the rambling too.
I come from a family of immigrants. My parent's generation lived in a little community with it's own foreign-language newspaper, radio, church and store that sold traditional food. All of our holidays had a cultural twist. Some of my relatives never learned English well. I had a relationship with an Indian (from Mumbai) and a crush on a Costa Rican. I married an immigrant. I've known, worked with, studied with, and hired people who travel across the Mexican border and who have families and property on both sides. I've enjoyed the company of people from all over the world: India, China, Japan, Ethiopia, Myanmar, the Phillipines, Guatemala, the aforementioned Mexico, and elsewhere.
And yet I come down against illegal immigration in a very visceral way. I've tried puzzling this out. I don't think it's racist because I've just been too close to too many people of all skin colors. It's certainly not for lack of knowledge about "hispanics".
I think it's mainly a matter of the immigrants' class, which predicts other factors like education and economic role. We have a lot of immigrants here from all over the world- Taiwan and mainland China, Vietnam, Korea, and Mexico, and the Phillipines as well as a significant black population. The reaction to one group or another can be predicted by the wealth of that group: Taiwanese who immigrated voluntarily came from middle or upper-class families, while Vietnamese who came here catastrophically and with nothing are looked on less favorably. So maybe I'm not a racist so much as I am a... snob?
To solve the problem of racism, simply rubbing elbows with "the help" or with "kids at school" is not going to break stereotypes or promote understanding. The only thing that REALLY rattles people's brains is being confronted with "the other" when that person is in a position of POWER- your black male teacher, your Spanish-speaking surgeon, the female cop who's writing your ticket- because you are forced to acknowledge their authority and deal with it.
Hey SignyM (just realized I'd been forgetting to capitalize the last M),
I think you've hit the nail on the head when you use the word visceral. For me it happens with language. Not written language. I could care less if the driving test or voting information is printed in a zillion languages (I'm actually happy people are taking the test and/or voting) and I think it's cool to see neon signs, store signs and billboards in languages other than English. It's the spoken language. I guess you could say that I have to work at not being a language snob. And I wonder how much of that is because I am fluent in only one language.
It's not like I've ever been unable to do what I wanted to because I couldn't communicate. There's nothing rational about it. And I don't interact with anyone on a regular basis who doesn't speak English at least well enough to communicate. I do find myself getting irritated when I'm in a group that all speak a language other than English and the conversation is primarily carried out in that language.
But I've never felt the need to learn a second language (Both my girlfriend and me are Mexican-American but were raised in English speaking households. My girlfriend learned Spanish in undergrad. I never got around to it). I have no idea how hard it would be to become fluent in a second language. So I try to cut a lot of slack. I have yet to meet an immigrant under the age of sixty who wasn't trying to learn or improve their English.
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I have a very hard time learning languages. All that rote memorization! I used to be fluent in French, and I can stumble my way around German but that doesn't help when everyone around me is speaking Tagalog or Cantonese.
I think the reaction is visceral for nearly everyone and it comes from that fundamental dividing line between "us" and "them"... who you identify with. When my hispanic colleagues and I talk about the topic, they feel far more sympathy to illegals than I do because they feel part of that community. My spouse, who was a poor immigrant, identifies with poor immigrants... but not with wealthy ones. And almost everything you hear after that reaction is rationalization and window-dressing. Changing who you fundamentally identify with is not impossible, but it takes either years of insight or some life-changing event (like in Crash)... and that just is not going to happen to the vast majority of... the whole world. It's not just a USA problem.
I've learned to distrust my viscera so I try to keep it out of this equation. I'm willing to look at everything surrounding the question of illegal immigration, starting with "Do nations serve a legitimate purpose, or are they an artificial construct that divides more than unifies?"
Now I'm at the end of MY rambling.
Thanks for listening.
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I've read that there are two groups of psychologically 'normal' people who become paranoid at more than the ususal rate: those with facial deformities and the hearing impaired.
I think being visibly excluded from conversations by any means is similar to being hearing impaired, and it triggers the same discomfort. Having people converse in a different language in your presence is uncomfortable. Having people whisper in your presence or stop talking when you come up is also uncomfortable - even if they are speaking a language you understand. I don't think it's snobbery.
Both my parents, and all my aunts and uncles and grandparents spoke Polish but didn't teach it to my generation (my siblings and all 'the cousins'). So I have gotten used to Polish specifically being spoken around me, and it's a pleasant kind of thing. But I've noticed that doesn't extend to other languages.
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I'm reminded of numerous family parties over the years where the language a person spoke at the party depended on the generation they were a part of. My brother dated and then eventually married a Visayan woman. This increased the size of our family tremendously. The youngest generation on her side of the family, the generation of my sister-in-law and her sisters and cousins, had either all been born in the US or were very young children when their parents emigrated. Their first language was English. Depending on the parents, the children's fluency in Visayan and Tagalog ranged from barely being able to understand to conversational. The parents had all learned English as a second language and were fluent albeit with varying thicknesses of accent. The grandparents had varying degrees of English fluency but, for the most part, did not speak the language at all.
So there were always two languages being spoken at the parties. The kids hung out together and communicated in English. The parents and grandparents hung out and spoke Visayan. Every so often the uncles would get bored and drag one of us away to drink with them. But I've found that it doesn't matter what language is being spoken as long as the booze is flowing. I can laugh and nod with the best of them, having no clue what is being talked about.
When one of my sister-in-law's sisters started dating a Hmung man I noticed the same thing at parties with his family.
I never felt irritated at those parties.
Contrast that with a time in undergrad when I was dating a woman from American Samoa. I learned very quickly that part of the package was that I would often be the only person at a party who didn't speak Samoan and that, for the vast majority of time, the only language being spoken at the party was Samoan. Pretty much all of our friends at those parties had grown up in American Samoa and left to come to college. So, while they were fluent in English, the language they were most comfortable with was their first language.
I sometimes got irritated and had to remind myself that I chose to be there. And there was always soemthing to do that didn't necessitate communication. I often put my lessons with the uncles to good effect.
Based on these experiences, it was no surprise to me to learn of the study on English language learning among immigrants. Basically, by the third generation (the grandchildren of those who emigrated, I think) all spoke English as a first language. All. Didn't matter what ethnic group. So when people complain about immigrants not speaking English I just shake my head and wonder how long it took the complainer to learn and be fluent in a second language.
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That's interesting.
My mother was first generation living in a Polish community. Polish was her fist language, she learned English in school. My father was from Poland, arriving in the US at the age of 40. (Does that makes me 1.5th generation?)
I think I've noticed a pattern of first and second generations, in that they tend to marry immigrants or first generation people, even if they are from other cultures. Perhaps the commonality is the experience of straddling cultures in the US. My one cousin married a Mexican from Mexico, another married a first generation Italian, one married a German from Germany (who came over in their teens) etc. I found the University experience of being in a mix of cultures to be awesome. And Toronto being so cosmopolitan is one of the reaons why it is my favorite city of all (as well as being clean, humane and non-violent). If I went to Vancouver I'd probably feel the same way.
I relate to that thing about smiling and looking attentive. My grandmother (a wonderful grandmother to all her grandchildren) was convinced I knew enough Polish to follow along.
edited to add:
Where I work the main non-Enligh languages are Mandarin and Tagalog. I can understand why people would want to speak in their first language with each other - they know it better, can express themselves more completely, and it's just easier. But the workplace culture has evolved over the last 15 years or so that it's considered rude to speak 'your' language in front of English speakers (though it is still done sometimes).
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