Illegal Immigration- what to do?

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Friday, May 12, 2023 14:24
VIEWED: 9966
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SIGNYM

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:21 AM

Quote:
Whatever. Jobs aren't some limited resource. A job isn't something you own, it's something you do. No one 'takes' a job from someone else simply because they start working too.

This is exactly where you're wrong. Under capitalism, jobs ARE limited. And furthermore, since they're limited by aggregate consumption, people coming in and willing to work for... fostering CHEAP jobs... creates a double whammy on the economy and sends the economy spiraling in another direction.

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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

SERGEANTX

Friday, July 14, 2006 4:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
This is exactly where you're wrong. Under capitalism, jobs ARE limited. And furthermore, since they're limited by aggregate consumption, people coming in and willing to work for... fostering CHEAP jobs... creates a double whammy on the economy and sends the economy spiraling in another direction.

So there's a cap on jobs? Better get me one before we run out! Maybe I'll get an extra to keep in storage.

C'mon, that holds up to pretty much no scrutiny. Performing valuable work isn't a zero-sum game. The more people work, the wealthier we all get. Someone working on the other side of town doesn't prevent you from doing likewise. '

Seriously, how exactly are jobs limited by 'aggregate consumption'?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Jobs aren't some limited resource. A job isn't something you own, it's something you do. No one 'takes' a job from someone else simply because they start working too.

Unless that person is willing to do the same job for less money.

Quote:

I believe it's still legal to build more houses.

Where do I start with this comment. Who is going to build these houses? Who will pay for the raw materials? How will services such as water, sewage, electricity, and gas be supplied to all of these new houses. I suppose these new suburbs will require roads and perhaps bus or train service. It is simple to say if new houses are needed they should be built. Much more complex of an issue when you really start to look at it.

Quote:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'system'. The vast majority of our immigrants have come here looking for opportunity, usually to escape a serious lack of it in their previous homes. It's part of what makes them motivated, hard working taxpayers.

If there's something about the 'system' that will break because people come here looking for freedom and opportunity, then there's something wrong with the 'system', not with the immigrants.

So every person that comes across the Mexican border will immediately be fluent in English, know the Constitution and the laws of the land, walk into their newly built and paid for house, get a job and fill out their tax forms. Once again a great sentiment, but not realistic.

De-lurking to stir stuff up.

SERGEANTX

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
So every person that comes across the Mexican border will immediately be fluent in English, know the Constitution and the laws of the land, walk into their newly built and paid for house, get a job and fill out their tax forms. Once again a great sentiment, but not realistic.

You're right, that's not realistic, but it's not my sentiment. No, most of them would show up flat broke, complete newbs in a foreign land. Pretty much like all of our families were when they first got here.

But, they'll build houses (or maybe they'd start with the tents you mentioned), they'd begin to learn the language. Constitution? It wouldn't surprise me if many of them already know it better than your average citizen. The tax man will catch up to them soon after.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SIGNYM

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:58 PM

Quote:
C'mon, that holds up to pretty much no scrutiny. Performing valuable work isn't a zero-sum game

It is under capitalism. How do you suppose they get the Irish to compete with the Costa Ricans for electronics jobs, and the Marians to compete with Haiti for clothing assembly, and the Chinese to compete with the Indians, and EVERYONE to compete with the USA? I DO have solutions but none of them involve denying the problem or playing their game.

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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

SERGEANTX

Friday, July 14, 2006 4:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
C'mon, that holds up to pretty much no scrutiny. Performing valuable work isn't a zero-sum game
It is under capitalism....

I'm not sure what you mean I guess. It's not like you can prevent people from working to make their lives better - and that's essentially all a 'job' is. If someone collects junk no one else wants and recycles it (for example), that's a job. Work isn't a limited commodity that can be hoarded or denied others. I'm not getting how or why you're seeing it that way.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SIGNYM

Friday, July 14, 2006 4:21 PM

Quote:
Work isn't a limited commodity that can be hoarded or denied others. I'm not getting how or why you're seeing it that way.

Work that involves using complex tools or distant trade IS a limited commodity. When was the last time you assembled an automobile or made your own antibiotics or sold oranges to Canada or built an office building? If you fall out of the economic structure you can survive by living on a garbage dump or hammering out belt buckles from tin cans on a street corner but that is not the kind of economy I would wish to create.

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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

ONETOOMANY

Friday, July 14, 2006 4:55 PM

I'm curious as to what country everybody here is from or what age. I see alot of comments that show some of the people here don't have enough direct experience (such as worked in the manufacturing, construction,or service fields) or haven't done proper research on what our (the U.S) neighboring countries require for people to move to them. I suggest these links:

MEXICO IMMIGRATION:

http://www.mexperience.com/liveandwork/immigration.htm#ImmPolicy

CANADA IMMIGRATION:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/index.html

Look at these sites & see just what other countries require for immigration before stating how WE should just let peolpe in. ALSO if you don't live in the US you don't get to have a DAMN opinion about how we should respond to our immigration problem. Deal with your own by letting in as many people as you want & see what the results are. By the way I challenge anyone to find an industrialized country with a stable economy that has a working open border policy like the one suggested for the US.
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Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER

SERGEANTX

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
...but that is not the kind of economy I would wish to create.

Hmmm. Well, we've all got our preferences I suppose. But you seem convinced that anyone who 'falls outside the economic structure' (which interpret to mean isn't working for an 'employer') is somehow digging through trash. It's not really that way. Working as an "independent" actually has many perks and can be very rewarding. I've done it many times in my life and I find it very reassuring to know that it's an option. Working isn't always about begging 'the man' for a 'job'.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SOUPCATCHER

Friday, July 14, 2006 7:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
Look at these sites & see just what other countries require for immigration before stating how WE should just let peolpe in.

And look at what is written on the Canadian and Mexican Statues of Liberty. Those hypocrites!

Seriously though, If you don't see that our country has a unique history in terms of immigrants, then we're talking past each other.

Quote:
Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
ALSO if you don't live in the US you don't get to have a DAMN opinion about how we should respond to our immigration problem. Deal with your own by letting in as many people as you want & see what the results are.

It's one thing to state that you give no credence to the opinion of someone who doesn't live in the US on this particular topic. I could see the logic of that. It's another to state that people can't have an opinion on a topic. That's just silly.

Quote:
Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
By the way I challenge anyone to find an industrialized country with a stable economy that has a working open border policy like the one suggested for the US.

That's exactly the policy that the US had for more than half of our existence. We seemed to do alright.

To satisfy my own curiousity, would you mind answering some questions?

What is the size of the community that you live in? (rural, town, etc - or just ballpark it by order of magnitude: hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, etc.).

What region of the US do you live in?

Do you live in a suburb that was established after 1900?

What are the demographics of your community?

Did the demographics of your community substantially change after 1890 and then remain consistently homogenized (wrt skin color) until only recently?

The reason why I'm asking these questions is because I'm curious about the whole, "why now," with respect to the immigration debate on a national level.

* edited to add: Just to expand on the last sentence. I grew up in Los Angeles - where the illegal immigration debate has been ongoing from well before I was born. So it's a surprise to me that, all of a sudden, the entire country is having it. Where were you all decades ago? One possible explanation I've read is that communities that previously had not had an immigrant population now do. That a number of predominantly white communities, and communities that became all-white by design in the 1890s (sundown cities) or suburbs that were created all-white by design after 1900 (sundown suburbs), were becoming less all-white. So I'm curious if you come from a sundown city or sundown suburb.

* edited one more time to add: I want to specifically say that when I say immigrant in the preceding paragraph what I mean is the subset of immigrants who are not white. This is for the simple reason that I have not seen any argument from the "build a wall" folks that we have a European immigrant problem. For the most part, the complaint is about Mexicans. Since the only group that people seem to have a problem with are non-white, I will only address non-white immigration. And also you will note that I have not asked what your skin color is because I feel the environment a person grows up in is more relevant to this discussion, especially if that environment is one which has historically embraced racism.

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