Question re: the intent of the US government

POSTED BY: Amiton
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 5, 2006 02:43
VIEWED: 3812
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HKCAVALIER

Friday, June 30, 2006 6:14 PM

As I see it, the essence of evil is the denial of evil; when you decide that you are incapable of evil, that's when you are most vulnerable to true evil's allure. You start thinking that "It can't be evil if I'm doing it!" The only people who commit evil acts believing them to be evil are the mentally ill.

So is the admin made up of mustache-twirling villains? Certainly not. Do they believe that the ends (global domination by the only righteous nation on earth) justify the means (lying for our own good, torturing and killing people because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong culture and the wrong skin color, maintaining an atmosphere of fear so they can maintain the illusion of control)? 'Fraid so. How far these lies go, I'm really not sure.

And of course, the first people they lie to are themselves. That's how the Bush apologists can maintain that Bush never lied in the face of falsehood after falsehood; nothing short of mustache-twirling intention and signed documents of a "This is how I plan to lie to the American people" nature will convince them of our admin's duplicity. They don't lie, they just make mistakes, or remember things wrong, only tell us part of the story for reasons of national security. Things have shifted in our obsessively litigious society from a standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" to "beyond any doubt whatsoever." O. J. goes free, Rodney King's abusers go free and Bush gets a pass because he "has our best interests at heart."

It is the ever growing capacity for denial in our collective American psyche that has paved the way for the tremendous harm our foreign policy is doing in the world. Fascists never see themselves as fascistic, they only see themselves as the rightful rulers of the earth.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SOUPCATCHER

Friday, June 30, 2006 6:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
I generally try to believe that most politicians at least make an attempt to do good things for their constituants and make the legacy of their tenure positive.

This is one of the biggest keys, in my mind, to understanding this administration. Who do they see as their consituents? Or, in other words, who do they see as their customer? This is true of any administration, however I believe that this administration cares about a much smaller group of consituents than those in the past.

More after I get back from meetings.

AMITON

Friday, June 30, 2006 6:40 PM

Rue:
Okay then. Each faction on its own agenda. Where do you place the intentions of those factions? I promise, I'm not planning to run down the possible recursion of this question until it's expended, I'm just curious. What I've seen of the US Bureaucracy is that each of the factions see themselves in the fiefdom model. They all have their own mission and vision, sometimes set by their own judgement, and they're going to do whatever they have to in order to get to their interpretation of their charter. Other fiefdoms that intrude upon their soveriegnty in said domain will be crushed. See the CIA v. the FBI v. INS v. DoD Intel issues for an example.

HK:
Much like FMF asserted earlier, I think yours is probably a fair assessment. None of us will ever truely know for certain, of course. I see a few issues that pop up all over. The politicians in most cases look out for the betterment of themselves and their fife. See above.

Now, these poiticos have to at least present an appearance to their constituants that they act in the district's best interest (on the off chance that someone looks up their voting record that might even be affected, but mostly they have to at least give lip service to "doing the right thing"). These guys are given tremendous power, though, and there are people that will give them just about anything for a little piece of that. Out come the moral blinders and the motivation of self-betterment. As long as they can convince themselves that nobody will be hurt then it must be okay, right?

*sigh* I've always disliked politics for this exact reason. When I start to think about it too much, it just ends up ugly and makes me feel like the system is broken beyond recovery. And we even have structure in place to move beyond the status quo in the direction of improved profit margins.

Amiton.

AMITON

Friday, June 30, 2006 6:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
I generally try to believe that most politicians at least make an attempt to do good things for their constituants and make the legacy of their tenure positive.

This is one of the biggest keys, in my mind, to understanding this administration. Who do they see as their consituents? Or, in other words, who do they see as their customer? This is true of any administration, however I believe that this administration cares about a much smaller group of consituents than those in the past.

More after I get back from meetings.

Let's run with this for a moment. I presume that you're asserting that the percieved consituants are big corporations and the most wealthy. Whether it's acceptable as a line of thinking or not, do you see Bush (since he's who we do and likely will continue to focus on) looking at it that way because he truly believes in Reaganomics, trickle-down theory, and voodoo economics (since they favor such behavior)? Is he (possibly) acting in that way because he feels that it is the way to the better good of all Americans and the US economy? As errant as that thinking has tended to be over the years, is his personal road to hell being paved with golden bricks of genuinely *wanting* to be a good president to the people, even if he is screwing it up?

Amiton.

RUE

Friday, June 30, 2006 7:33 PM

I see a gradation of evil. The two groups that HK outlined, if I got it right, are those who do evil for it's own sake, and those who rationalize evil out of existance with a different scheme of values. I think there is a third set, and it is those who do evil knowing it's evil but not caring - b/c they benefit in some way.

I can't enter the minds of the people who I think are doing evil (the factions of the current administration) so I will never KNOW for sure how to categorize them.

But I can speculate:

Bush - has lied and lied and lied repeatedly, about all sorts of things both big (Iraq) and little (FEMA). Apparently OK with it as long as he convinces others. (The transforming power of persuation.) Lied the US into a war of aggression; bankrupted the country for generations to come with tax policies, war, and corporate welfare; is dismantling the environment, SS, etc. No concern for human life or empathy. No apparent conscience about anything. His MO - lie to put a good face on actions. Feigning a popular persona is how he validates himself. His agenda - look out for #1. Sociopath.

Cheney - truly evil, knows it and doesn't care. Looks out for Cheney, Haliburton, and Cheney, in that order. Personally brutal. Wants torture, argues for toture at every turn. Wanted the Iraq war, hounded intelligence for the 'right' facts and got PO'd when they wouldn't cooperate (lie). Shoots his friend in the face and goes off to dinner. Doesn't have the skill to make himself look good. That ticking that you hear is the watch the wizard gave him, his real heart, ironically, doesn't work that well. Sociopath and psychopath.

The PNAC crowd. Some true believers, some opportunists. Splits even among the true believers. Some want to starve the beast, and some want the beast to rampage around the globe.

Rove has had anough written about him.

And assorted opportunists, liars, grifters and American Taliban (the Evangelicals).

None of them have the public good in mind.

CHRISISALL

Friday, June 30, 2006 7:45 PM

I would pretty much agree w/Rue above (although I think GW thinks he has compassion), I think he put it best. And very clearly (although I personally wouldn't have worded it that strongly...at this moment).

Still want HK and Rue for Prez & VP Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Friday, June 30, 2006 8:22 PM

"The government" is a huge organization. Heck, even I'M "the government" because I'm a government employee. So to break down the motivations of "the government" would take some time, but taking Rue's tack:

Bush is an incomplete individual who only speaks fluidly when talking about vengeance and violence. Neither of his two neurons work very well. His instincts are so twisted that he just winds up doing bad things, even as he rationalizes to himself that it's for good reasons. He will trample everyone- including himself (except Cheney and Condi) to fulfill his confused pursuits.

Cheney is fully cognizant of the damage that he's doing in pursuit of personal wealth and power, and really doesn't care. The knowledge that this can all come to a screeching halt if his heart fails doesn't seem to influence his behavior either, except possibly to make him go faster.

Abrams, Wurmser, Wolfowitz, and Perle are Zionists who have no concern whatsoever about America or its needs. They really only care about Israel. (I could probably put Liberman and Feinstein in that bag too. But they don't have position papers that they've written for the Likud Party stuck to their shoes.)

Rove is a sociopathic manipulator and a closeted self-hating gay who sees the American public as subjects in his great experiment of how much he can convince people to hurt themselves. It's an ego thing for him.

The low-level American Taliban (right wing Xtian evagenlicals) who have taken over the Texas Republican party are sincere, but nutty as a fruitcakes.

A large portion of Republican Party (De Lay, Cunnigham, Reed, Norquist, Ney etc etc) are plundering their public positions for as much $$ as they can get. I don't think there is even fig-leaf of public interest covering their activities. The remainder of the Republican Party are hiding out with the Democrats.

A large part of the Democratic Party are hoping to lay low and continue collecting the perks and paychecks of their trade.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

RUE

Friday, June 30, 2006 8:43 PM

I TOO am part of 'the government'. ( ) Fortunately my job's arcane enough and I'm low-level enough that I've not been asked to lie, about anything. YEE HA!

CITIZEN

Friday, June 30, 2006 9:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The low-level American Taliban (right wing Xtian evagenlicals) who have taken over the Texas Republican party are sincere, but nutty as a fruitcakes.

I saw a documentary recently about an American college taking the brightest minds from 'good Christian families' and grooming them to be Republican leaders, with the stated purpose of bringing down the wall between church and state.

They want to turn the US into a Christian Theocracy and they're not above a bit of brain washing to do it. A scary prospect for Christians and non-Christians alike, unless, of course, your part of the ruling class...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

SIMONWHO

Friday, June 30, 2006 10:00 PM

Political leaders generally look after (in the following order): themselves, their colleagues (those they're not trying to destroy), their base.

Bush has made himself and his allies even richer, simply due to bumping up the oil price 30% or so. Imagine being able to sell your product for 30% more, even though it doesn't cost you one cent more to produce. Nice, huh? All you have to do is invade this country with a bad man as its leader and there you go. Perfect.

His base, of course, is the have's and the have more's.

The constitution, the courts, public opinion, free speech, human rights, the Geneva Convention? Obstacles to be fought against or ignored. (Case in point: Supreme Court says you can't use military tribunals on the GB detainees; Bush immediately announces he'll try to find a "middle way" to use... military tribunals.)

Basically, he's a self-serving opportunist. And he's made fools of nearly every American. But hey, you elected and re-elected him. Most of you deserve the whirlwind. Shame you're not the ones paying the heaviest price.

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