The FairTax... do you know what it is?
POSTED BY: Nurumla
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 04:35
VIEWED: 8195
PAGE 2 of 3
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I like this plan. It would encourage a large underground economy as people sought ways to avoid the tax. I think this would be very healthy and throw a wrench in plans to shift us all to a cashless economy.
I was going to say the same thing. We'd all become smugglers and black-marketeers.
I would probably never have to pay any kind of tax ever again. Count me in too. :-)
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Altho I agree that the tax code needs simplifying (I'm one of those people that still does their own tax, sans taxware. Plus I'm a household employer so I get to fill out W-2s, W-3s, FUTA, SSI, and all that....) I really don't think this "fair tax" is a good idea.
First of all it's not fair. Because the poor and middle class spend the largest portion of their income on consumption (the wealthy invest/ speculate with theirs) it would tax the poorer more and eventually cycle more money percent-wise into the hands of the upper class.
Not that I'm a bleeding-heart liberal, but do you know what caused the Great Depression? It was basically the collapse of middle-class purchasing power after the stock bubble burst. Once people stop buying, factories close. People are thrown out of work and the cycle continues. Sucking money out of the poor and middle class is generally not sustainable in the long run (altho Bush and his cronies are doing their best!)
Hey, gotta run. I'll add a few more paras on why it's poor policy later.
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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.
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Uncle Scam's Income Tax is voluntary - 16th Amendment never ratified by the States
The "Fair Tax" (aka European VAT Sales Tax) or Flat Tax is for sucker slaves. $70-Trillion taxdollars is stolen from CAFR Govt "pension" (slush) funds every year, more than enough to run all fed, state and local govt's with ZERO taxation of ANY kind. Starting in the 1950s, Gangsta Govt keeps two sets of books - The Budget Report (expenses), and the Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports (profits). Check it out for yourself in your own city, county and state. Ask for your own free copy of your CAFR and Budget reports. The greedheads don't work, they live off OPM - Other Peoples' Money. DOH!
www.cafrman.com
Why would anyone volunteer to pay taxes when individual gov't employees pay themselves, millions, billions or trillions of taxdollars/year salary? IRS is just a private collection agency for the private international counterfeit Federal Reserve Bank Corporation. NONE of the income taxes you pay are used to run the U.S. Govt.
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www.freedomtofascism.com
1040 Checkmate?
DOJ Dismisses Felony Tax Prosecution With Prejudice, After PRA Defense Raised
Evidence OMB Complicit In Income Tax Fraud
DOJ & IRS Petitioned To Explain
http://GiveMeLiberty.org
June 9, 2006
On May 12, 2006 in Peoria, Illinois, the attorney for the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) begged the court to dismiss all charges against IRS victim Robert Lawrence in federal District Court.
The motion for dismissal came on the heels of a surprise tactic by Lawrence's defense attorney Oscar Stilley.
The tactic threatened exposure of IRS's on-going efforts to defraud the public. The move put DOJ attorneys in a state of panic that left them with only one alternative: beg for dismissal, with prejudice.
Stilley's tactic paid off. Sixty days earlier, the DOJ had indicted Lawrence on three counts of willful failure to file a 1040 form, and three felony counts of income tax evasion. The federal Judge dismissed all charges with prejudice, meaning the DOJ cannot charge Lawrence with those crimes again.
The trial was to have started on Monday morning, May 15th.
On Wednesday, May 10, Stilley mailed a set of documents to the DOJ in response to DOJ's discovery demands. The documents revealed to DOJ for the first time that Lawrence was basing his entire defense on an act of Congress, 44 U.S.C. 3500 – 3520, also known as the "Paperwork Reduction Act" (PRA).
In Section 3512 of the Act, titled "Public Protection," it says that no person shall be subject to any penalty for failing to comply with an agency's collection of information request (such as a 1040 form), if the request does not display a valid control number assigned by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) in accordance with the requirements of the Act, or if the agency fails to inform the person who is to respond to the collection of information that he is not required to respond to the collection of information request unless it displays a valid control number.
In Section 3512 Congress went on to authorize that the protection provided by Section 3512 may be raised in the form of a complete defense at any time during an agency's administrative process (such as an IRS Tax Court or Collection and Due Process Hearing) or during a judicial proceeding (such as Lawrence's criminal trial).
click link for the rest of this long article:
http://givemeliberty.org/RTP2/UPDATES/Update2006-06-09.htm
The Law They Hope You Never Read
As interviewed on Rense Radio
By William A. Shields
www.Rense.com,
Feb 6, 2006
At first I thought this issue was amusing. Then, the more I researched it, the more compelling it became, and today, I'm here to tell you that the subject of this column is arguably, the most important issue of our lifetime. I'm speaking of fraud on a scale so massive and so enduring it could only be perpetrated by the federal government. That is to say, a federal government opeNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Back to tax and monetary policy...
Think about it. Money, unlike water, tends to concentrate unless intentionally re-distributed. Wealthy individuals and corporations bend the law to aggregate more and more money into the hands of fewer and fewer. But what drives an economy is circulation of capital. Once capital is fully concentrated, circulation stops. You can have an economy with literally hundred of billions of bills and coins, but unless they actually change hands the economy is stagnant. That was Keyne's whole point of introducing inflation by increasing the money supply and introducing it thru the bottom strata to overcome the natural tendency of money to concentrate.
At this point, profits account for 12% of the GNP- up from 9% five years ago- while the amount of money going to wages declined from 52% to 48%. The USA has a wealth gap larger than any other developed nation. Even business leaders have said that this rate of concentration is "unsustainable".
As for business flocking to the USA- one of the biggest costs that USA businesses bear that other developed economies don't is killer health insurance costs. This is because one part of the economic sector- in this case the insurances- are allowed to bleed other businesses dry.
Quote:Your argument contains a deep logical flaw. If it's true that ultimately the consumers pay the tax anyway, why not just tax the corporations and be done with it? Clearly, it DOES make a difference "who" pays the taxes otherwise the corporations wouldn't be fighting taxes so hard!
Ultimately, the consumer pays every cent of tax collected by the government. If Widgets, Inc pays tax on the raw materials used to manufacture its products, the company will pass those costs along to the retailer, who then will pass them to the consumer. So the consumer pays the hidden taxes now (20-25% of the retail price) or will pay them in addition to the much lower retail price in the fair tax system.
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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Uncle Scam's Income Tax is voluntary - 16th Amendment never ratified by the States
The "Fair Tax" (aka European VAT Sales Tax) or Flat Tax
Whoa now! Stop right there. The FairTax is NOT the VAT tax and it is NOT the Flat Tax.
First off the Flat Tax is still an income tax, something that the FairTax eliminates. The Flat Tax doesn't change anything really. Click this link to more information: http://www.pafairtax.org/resrcs/FlatTaxFairTaxComparison.pdf
And the VAT tax imposes a tax at every intermediate step of production, so the goods reach the final consumer with much of the tax already implicit in the price. The FairTax only taxes at the retail level.
the woods are lovely, dark, and deep
but I have promises to keep
and miles to go before I sleep
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
First of all it's not fair. Because the poor and middle class spend the largest portion of their income on consumption (the wealthy invest/ speculate with theirs) it would tax the poorer more and eventually cycle more money percent-wise into the hands of the upper class.
Actually no, the FairTax is the best system for the poor there is (short of communism, which I am completely against). The FairTax Plan provides a tax prebate every month that completely relieves individuals and families living at or below the poverty level from paying taxes. 100% tax-free living at or below the poverty level. No other tax strategy has so strongly empowered the lower classes to climb their way towards earning a dignified living.
The FairTax treats all Americans exactly the same. The wealthy will no longer be able to take advantage of loopholes or use expensive tax attorneys and accountants to, as some have said, “cheat” their way out of paying taxes.
Quote:
Your argument contains a deep logical flaw. If it's true that ultimately the consumers pay the tax anyway, why not just tax the corporations and be done with it? Clearly, it DOES make a difference "who" pays the taxes otherwise the corporations wouldn't be fighting taxes so hard!
Again, no. If cooperations had less tax burden there would be less burden to be passed down to the consumer, thus making that business better suited for competition. And competition is what makes the world go round, for them at least.
the woods are lovely, dark, and deep
but I have promises to keep
and miles to go before I sleep
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Quote:The fact still remains that since the poor spend a far greater percentage of their earnings on products in comparision to the wealthy that they're going to be making a greater percentage wise tax contribution than the rich.
Actually no, the FairTax is the best system for the poor there is (short of communism, which I am completely against). The FairTax Plan provides a tax prebate every month that completely relieves individuals and families living at or below the poverty level from paying taxes. 100% tax-free living at or below the poverty level. No other tax strategy has so strongly empowered the lower classes to climb their way towards earning a dignified living.
The FairTax treats all Americans exactly the same. The wealthy will no longer be able to take advantage of loopholes or use expensive tax attorneys and accountants to, as some have said, “cheat” their way out of paying taxes.
With common income taxing schemes the percentage of tax increases with earnings, the FairTax system would reverse that, which is unfair.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nurumla:Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Uncle Scam's Income Tax is voluntary - 16th Amendment never ratified by the States
And the VAT tax imposes a tax at every intermediate step of production, so the goods reach the final consumer with much of the tax already implicit in the price. The FairTax only taxes at the retail level.
When I lived in England, VAT sales tax was NOT paid by businesses, since they got VAT exemption forms, just like in USA. That's an 18% discount.
In USA, small biz owners carry their sales tax exemption form when they go shopping, and never pay sales tax again. Sheeple just carry their "Special Customer Discount Card" ("special" means "retarded").
If CAFR taxdollars weren't looted, there would be no need for sales tax, income tax, property tax, or gas tax ($3/gallon in europe and soon in USA). Honest sheeple just cannot seem to comprehend the criminal minds of our politicians, which is insane.
When you think like a business owner, you realize Uncle Scam already has all the money it needs to run all govt services without taxation. Rule #1 in business - when your biz earns $70-Trillion/year in PROFIT, you don't need to borrow any more money from the banksters (private Fed Reserve) nor the shareholders (you and me). Heck, you don't even need to sell to customers (taxpayers) any more, since the company's investments on Wall Street provide far more income. Big Brother has worked for 2 centuries and has enough of a nest egg to literally retire, and live off its investments FOREVER.
But to Gangsta Govt, no price is too high, and it's never satisfied until all its customers are dead, robbed, raped or doped. Taxation is just armed robbery.
These bastards and bitches think we are their slaves. That's why they hid out at the Bilderberg meeting in Canada this past week, plotting their next armed robbery and mass murder on their global plantation. Bilderberg is the top secret society on the planet, where US presidents and prime ministers are hired and fired, in total secrecy. Last year they "predicted" $150/barrel oil, which they'll get when Bush and BLiar bravely sign their signatures to invade Iran.
Quote:
"The 54th Bilderberger meeting will be held in Ottowa, Canada, 8-11, 2006. The conference will deal mainly with European-American relations, Energy, Russia, Iran, the Middle East, Asia, Terrorism and Immigration. Approximately 130 participants will attend of whom about 2/4rds will come from Europe and the balance from North America. The meeting is private in order to encourage frank and open discussion. Bildergerg takes its name from the hotel in Holland, where the first meeting took place in 1954. Bilderberg is a small, flexible, informal and off-the-record international forum in which different veiwpoints can be expressed and mutual understanding enhanced. Participants have agreed not to give interviews to the press during the meeting. In contacts with the media after the conference it is an established rule that no attribution should be made to individual participants of what was discussed during the meeting. There will be no press conference. A list of participants is appended."
-Bilderberger Press Release 2006
www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/bilderberg_list2006.htm
www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/secretb.htm
David Rockefeller at Bilderberg 2006
Photo by Jean Levac, The Ottawa Citizen
"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If tNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I know this is hard to believe, but the LAST thing that corporations want is competition. As soon as a business goes from being a "small business" (fighting tooth and nail for that lunchtime dollar) to a large business it seeks it's natural, most profitable state: monopolism and then fascism. If a monopoly is not achievable a cartel will do nicely.
Again, no. If cooperations had less tax burden there would be less burden to be passed down to the consumer, thus making that business better suited for competition. And competition is what makes the world go round, for them at least.
To address your first point- what this tax will do is create a tax "hump". The rebate will affect the very poorest for a larger percent of income, the top 10% will get whacked less (on a percentage basis) because they spend far less on consumption, and the middle class- the ones who already have the largest tax burden (as a percentage of income) will once again get nailed. It's still not fair because it targets the middle class.
As for consumers always paying taxes... First of all, everyone touches the money as it passes thru their hands: consumers, business, and government. (To quote Dune "Money flows everywhere.") I could just as easily say that "business eventually pays all taxes" and even "government eventually pays all taxes". Your point that "consumers eventually pay all taxes" is... well... kind of a cheat.
So let's assume that what you're REALLY trying to do is shift the tax burden away from business. Is that the model we want to follow? Why not just lower the average wage? Reduce worker safety and environmental laws? Eliminate worker's compensation? Heck- remove ALL "cost of doing business" from the corporations? Make the whole world a giant "company town"?
Well, then we'd be back in the days of the robber barons. The long -term problem with that economic model, as I've pointed out before, is that you're setting the stage for an economic meltdown. You have to recycle MOST of the money back into the hands of your best consumers otherwise you have no economy left. And what money is sequestered into "profits" has to be replaced by printing more money.
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Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
The fact still remains that since the poor spend a far greater percentage of their earnings on products in comparision to the wealthy that they're going to be making a greater percentage wise tax contribution than the rich.
With common income taxing schemes the percentage of tax increases with earnings, the FairTax system would reverse that, which is unfair.
It think we've reached the source of our disagreement. So even though this system is better for the middle class and the lower class, you don't like it because it's not taxing the rich enough? I believe that taxing everyone the same is best. "In the most advanced countries the following will be pretty generally applicable:..a heavy progressive or graduated income tax." That was written by Karl Marx in The Communist Manifesto.
Quote:
To address your first point- what this tax will do is create a tax "hump". The rebate will affect the very poorest for a larger percent of income, the top 10% will get whacked less (on a percentage basis) because they spend far less on consumption, and the middle class- the ones who already have the largest tax burden (as a percentage of income) will once again get nailed. It's still not fair because it targets the middle class.
This does not target anyone as I said before its fair, everyone gets treated exactly the same. See above.
Quote:
but the LAST thing that corporations want is competition
I am aware that if they could have a monopoly they would take it. But they don't have a monopoly. They have people they have to compete against to keep their prices in check.
the woods are lovely, dark, and deep
but I have promises to keep
and miles to go before I sleep
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