How does River's brain work?

POSTED BY: ZachsMind
UPDATED: Sunday, April 4, 2004 12:15
VIEWED: 9588
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HUMBLE

Sunday, January 4, 2004 5:45 PM

from what i can see River's psychic abilities seem to allow her to develop a rapport between her mind and people she's "linked" to. she also has the ability to think 10 steps ahead strategically. when she is in a schizoid state, real objects lose their real world identities and become what River interprets them to be in her version of reality. think she has ability to predict future events, but only in a limited way, usually just before the event transpires. also has a homicidal dislike towards blue sun corp.with regards to river's extrapolating/inferrence to deduce the "future", with her current mindset i don't think it's probable although it might be possible. in ariel, we've got proof of her ability to remotely sense the blue glovers.

Let's Do Some CRIME!

ZACHSMIND

Monday, January 5, 2004 12:07 AM

"You need to stop this right now.."

Excuse me? Your tone isn't exactly a polite one for civilized debate, you ho-tze-duh-PEE-goo! Telling me what to do, you should be ashamed of yourself!

First, y'all're confusing subjective reality with objective reality. The opening sequence of "Objects In Space" is largely told from River's subjective perspective. We assume she's 100% correct in what she surmises the others are thinking, but really we're just being introduced to a glimpse of HOW River thinks. She looks at a person and everything that she has observed about that person floods through her mind simultaneously. The end result may not make a lot of sense to her at the time. Like when Book says, "I don't give half a hump whether you're guilty or innocent so where does that put you?" How do we even know that's what Book was thinking? It's what River thinks he's thinking, but she didn't then ask him to come up with a number between one and ten. She may have been completely wrong about all of it. Even the ocean and violins.

However, let's assume for a moment that she was right about Book. How could she have come to that conclusion without actual supernatural phenomena entering into the picture? Easy. In our own observance of Shepherd Book, we have theorized he's something more than or other than a mere priest. Book's behavior has indicated he's not very concerned about the guilt or innocence of anyone. However, he's supposed to be a priest. These things are normally the concern of someone who actually is a priest. He didn't freak out when the only Bible on the ship was ripped to pieces by River. In fact he took it as a consequence of interest. As if he were more interested in River's approach to faith than he was in the sacriledge she was committing. Doesn't sound like a priest to me. Nor to River.

So her unconscious mind surmised that when a man like Book is sitting there laughing it up with an obvious gohseh head like Jayne, it's readily apparent he cares not about guilt or innocence for anyone. That it's not his true mission. And if that's not his true mission, to be a priest, then he's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Where does that put Jayne? Where does that put River?

You don't need some unforeseen power from beyond to tell you that Book is not what he pretends to be. Calling River a psychic is like seeing a gun and calling it a tree branch.

I've listened to the audio commentary and don't recall Whedon ever blatantly referring to River as a psychic. I'm sure if that quote can be found and seen in context you'll see he wasn't referring to her as a psychic in the classic sense that involves crystal balls or seances. The word "psychic" is an inferior word to describe the character of River Tam.

There is no overwhelming evidence that proves her being a mystical psychic. In fact all the evidence suggests the contrary. However, you have to watch the series a few times to catch the nuances and clues. On the surface it looks like her abilities are mystical in origin, but that doesn't coincide with her past. Blue Sun didn't commit devil-worshipping rituals on her or called upon the white pagan gods of nature while lighting candles at River's bedside. Blue Sun cut her head open and treated her grey matter like tossed salad. So if there is no scientific explanation for River, the entire core of the series is in jeopardy.

If Firefly was about a bunch of people who go investigate haunted houses, or explore dungeons and fight dragons, okay we can play with this psychic medium trip. It's unfair of any fan of the series to just lump the character of River into the same category with other famous fictional psychics like.. like Tangina Barrons that old lady in the Poltergeist movies. Now she was a psychic. River's no "Come into the light Carol Anne" kinda psychic.

Y'all can just go on ahead and remain underneath the veil of ignorance all ya want, though. I've made my point. I've said my piece. When arguing with people who actually entertain the thought that Sherlock Holmes of all people

DARKSYDE

Monday, January 5, 2004 1:11 PM

Not sure all of your "evidence" is overwhelming either. based on your own beliefe and observation you have provided one possible alternitive. It is a well thought out concept that is quite good imo. though I am not convinced it is correct. Given the amount of opinion on both sides of the situation you tend to touch uppon the grey area of beliefe. You believe your concept and view is correct and seem just as unwilling to accpet it as an /option/ instead of the /fact/ that you seem to have convinced yourself that is just as most of those reading appear to believe there side is /fact/ without provideing the level and detail that you did in your posts to explain your possition. I found most of your posts quite intresting and well thought out though the last leaned a bit on the snippy side.

I am curious as to your opinion on the two blue hands indeviduals. Assumeing the situation with river is as you have laid out whay do you sumize they are after her at all? Smart and very observant but worth murding an entire police force over, doubtfull. Some other secret she holds then may haps?

Lates and keep up the interesting work :)

"That's what happens when you call the FEDS!"

ZACHSMIND

Monday, January 5, 2004 2:58 PM

Regarding the blue glove guys it's simple. They see River Tam as their property and Simon as a thief. They are apathetic about the idea that River is Simon's sister. That means nothing to them. River was brought to them through a third party that told River's parents she was going to stay in a special school but this third party actually sold her to the blue boys. So they see her as merely property. Property which they probably paid a lot to get. They realized her potential and spent a great deal of money redesigning her brain so that she could serve their purposes. What those purposes we can only speculate but based on her aptitude with guns and inclination to expertly and violently attack anyone she perceives to be an enemy, I surmise they were grooming her to be an intergalactic assassin under their thumb.

They've invested much in her, and they are relentless in their pursuits, so she's aware of their behavior and that it will not change. They will hunt her down and take her back because that is simply what they do. Again. She's not mystically perceiving their behavior. She's predicting their behavior based on her observations of them before. Everything is a mathematical probability to her, from Jayne's betrayal to Kaylee's interest in her brother.

What some call psychic phenomena, River would refer to as mathematical probabilities. And the blue boys hunting her down is a 100% probability.

------------------------------
"Hang on, travelers..."

MALSYUMMY!MMMMM

Monday, January 5, 2004 11:41 PM

I'd have to say that it's a combination of the two theories. It's obvious that she has at least some phsycic ability, but she is also very good at deduction. Also if it's been said that she's phsycic then she must be.

mmmm i love mal!

LTNOWIS

Tuesday, January 6, 2004 12:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ZachsMind:
... based on her aptitude with guns and inclination to expertly and violently attack anyone she perceives to be an enemy, I surmise they were grooming her to be an intergalactic assassin under their thumb.

She doesn't have an "inclination" to expertly attack people. She only did on one occassion, the assault on Neska's base, in a life or death situation. Her attack on Jayne was not "expert." An expert attack would be something lethal, such as neck-stabbing.

Quote:
Originally posted by ZachsMind:
He didn't freak out when the only Bible on the ship was ripped to pieces by River. In fact he took it as a consequence of interest. As if he were more interested in River's approach to faith than he was in the sacriledge she was committing. Doesn't sound like a priest to me. Nor to River.

That doesn't mean he's a priest. I've seen a bishop tear pages from the Bible to illustrate a point. Nobody at our church cared. It's not like the Koran, where it has to be pretty, and you gotta hold it in a special way. It's just information, like if you had the Bible on a floppy disk.

Quote:
Originally posted by ZachsMind:
Blue Sun didn't commit devil-worshipping rituals on her or called upon the white pagan gods of nature while lighting candles at River's bedside. Blue Sun cut her head open and treated her grey matter like tossed salad. So if there is no scientific explanation for River, the entire core of the series is in jeopardy.

Couldn't the knifing of her brain unlock some mystical psychic ability? It's actually pretty plausible. When you do drugs like LSD, it allows previously suppressed pathways in the brain to start working, enabling you to see music and such. Normally we can't see things like that, because it would be maddeningly confusing, so our brain shuts it off. That would explain why they knifed out her brain filter thingy, like Simon explained. Of course the side effects are confusing images and uncontrolled emotions, but whatever.

LTNOWIS

Tuesday, January 6, 2004 12:59 AM

Oops, I posted my response twice. I guess I'll delete the 2nd posting.

KURUKAMI

Tuesday, January 6, 2004 2:15 AM

You mean, other than this?

Joss Whedon said, in the commentary to "Objects in Space":

Quote:
She's also important because this episode was designed to be about River, to start dealing with the story of River. What we're seeing obviously are psychic visions of things we've either heard or don't yet understand. We're seeing the teaser through her perspective, which is somewhat disassociative from reality.

... and here...

Quote:
Now right here, we're going through the ship again, to what is my favorite shot, River listening. This shot here, the Batgirl shot as I call it, I had to shoot four times before I found the right angle. The point of the scene, storywise, is that they are being listened to, below and above, by two people who are outsiders, who hear everything they're saying, but, and can understand it on a level that even they can't, since she is psychic and he is so intuitive as to be nearly psychic, yet they also can't understand a great deal of it because it is just, there's a synapse in them that is broken.

... and here...

Quote:
And the fact of the matter is, psychic was exactly as far as I was prepared to go, she wasn't going to become a ship. But the idea that you might believe it, makes you look at the ship in a new way, makes you understand her in a different way, and that's what I was y'know, trying to get at in a large way, besides just having alot of fun.

All of these are in the "Objects in Space" commentary, which was kindly transcribed by Punkinpuss on this page: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=4&t=3153

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

ZACHSMIND

Tuesday, January 6, 2004 4:02 AM

"Her attack on Jayne was not "expert." An expert attack would be something lethal, such as neck-stabbing."

That would only be if her intent was to kill Jayne, which obviously it was not. She simply wanted to see how Jayne would look in red.

If she wanted Jayne dead, he'd be dead. She killed three men blind. I question whether River is even capable of making an error. What she says and does has purpose, even if it's not readily apparent.

Regarding Book there are other actions he's made which question whether or not he is what he claims to be. Like River, Book has shown a surprising ability with guns, one that would not be assumed from a shepherd. He's gained medical attention from the Alliance when they would have otherwise turned him away. He tried to intimidate Mal once in regards to that 'special hell' but otherwise he's predominantly not been much of a god fearin type. He hangs with Jayne and Inara in a way priest-like people generally would not. There's also all the moments that the characters have shared which we haven't seen on the show.

Early was able to determine in a matter of seconds that Book wasn't a shepherd. I suggest that River could learn even more than that just by observing him for the several months that these people have shared time on the ship together.

"Couldn't the knifing of her brain unlock some mystical psychic ability? It's actually pretty plausible."

I'm not questioning the validity of psychic phenomena. I'm saying in this case it's not necessary to make that assumption. She can be "psychic" in a nonmagical sense and that's perfectly valid. In which case, the use of the word psychic is misleading.

Which brings us to dear Mister Whedon. From Kurukami's findings on the audio commentary:

"What we're seeing obviously are psychic visions of things we've either heard or don't yet understand."

Notice that Whedon does not refer to River as A psychic. He says what we're obviously seeing are visions of things we've either heard before or don't yet understand. "psychic visions."

And back at the end of season two of Buffy, Buffy obviously killed her lover and sent him to hell, never to return... At least until season three. =)

I can't argue the second one except to reiterate that Whedon obviously wants us to believe she is psychic. He once wanted us to believe Willow was straight. Or that Spike was irredeemable. Or that Cordelia was becoming a god (I still have a candle in the window for Cordy on that score). Just because Whedon says it, that don't make it so. And EVEN if he means psychic sincerely, I still insist he's not meaning it in a mystical sense.

Firefly's 'verse ain't the BuffyVerse. Magic is about as feasible as aliens in the Firefly 'verse. It's a big fat maybe. Not impossible, but not a conclusion one should jump too without exhausting all other possibilities. When one can explain something more scientifically, that's the direction to go.

Whedon again: "And the fact of the matter is, psychic was exactly as far as I was prepared to go, she wasn't going to become a ship."

"Psychic" is the outside limit of her character. It's as far as Whedon's rubber band will stretch with River, but there's all this bufferzone y'all are just dismissing, in order to go straight to the extreme. River doesn't HAVE to be a mystical psychic. There's many more levels and possibilities here.

Maybe that's what really happened with Firefly? It peaked too soon? Or maybe Whedon wanted us all to assume River was psychic, and then he was gonna surprise us as he has done countless times before.

Maybe we'll find out with the movie. Maybe we'll never know for sure. Bottom line: Firefly ain't Buffy and it ain't Angel, so I'm not jumping the gun and assuming mystical powers. You can if you want but that's not what the evidence of the show is suggesting to me, whether Whedon intended it or not.

River is no "come into the light Carol Anne" kinda psychic.

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"Hang on, travelers..."

SHEWHOHATHAPEN

Tuesday, January 6, 2004 4:24 AM

If I understand this correctly your argument is that River is not a psychic in the mystical sense but rather someone who is able to through her genius run probabilities and such to accurately predict the future and guess as to what people are thinking.

Now I always assumed that she was psychic in the sci-fi sense which while it sometimes has the explanation you're giving is just as often the result of experimentation awakening parts of the human mind that are theoretically naturally capable of telepathy and precognition. That whole humans-only-use-a-small-percentage-of-their-brain-so-what's-the-rest-of-it-for concept.

I mean I figured there was nothing mystical about River's abilites just based on the virtue that it's a sci-fi show. But at the same time since Whedon does refer to her as psychic and does insinuate that the things she sees in OiS are accurate and not deduced but merely percieved as "psychic visions" (he also refers to Early's intuitiveness, not deductive abilities which I think is also an indication of where Joss is coming from with this), I'm more inclined to believe that it's an actual superhuman ability as opposed to an application of deductive reasoning and observation. But a superhuman ability gained by scientific means not mystical.

---
"I'm very sorry if she tipped off anyone about your cunningly concealed herd of cows."

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