Strongest Woman

POSTED BY: deepgirl187
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 15:32
VIEWED: 11810
PAGE 5 of 7

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT PAGE

DAVESHAYNE

Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Simon in the very first episode,

Didn't see it through. Inara got Mal to give in. Simon would have been outh the arilock without a suit if Inara hadn't been there.

Quote:
Kaylee in the unaired cut of the pilot

The key word there being unaired. Not on the DVD anywhere. You'ld think that Joss didn't want that to be part of the story after all.

Quote:
Zoe in the movie

When? the "I don't disagree with any particular point" speach? That wasn't standing up that was backing down.

Quote:
Wash in War Stories...

Sabotaging the shuttle because he was too scared to directly confront Mal about his relationship with Zoe? I guess passive agressivce is the best we can hope for from Wash but it was a far cry from actually confronting him.

Quote:
Ignoring their biggest confrontation? How convienent for you.

It wasn't their biggest confrontation. There was a lot of snark, Inara made her point about not being able to find clients, Mal denied that it was deliberate and then they got into a silly little argument about crime that ended in Inara calling Mal petty.

A very minor squable that doesn't appear to have had any lasting effect on their relationship. Inara even calls Mal a petty thief in Heart of Gold and all it ellicits from Mal is a brief look.

Quote:
So when Inara is telling Mal to do what Simon is telling Mal to do it and has no effect on the outcome that's important

You have it backward. Mal won't do what Simon has told him to do untill Inara tells him to and Kaylee moans. The important part there is Inara. Simon would have been dropped on a shuttle with Dobson for the feds to pick up had Inara not gotten involved.

Quote:
Inara backs down with the threat of violence, River responds in kind. Inara gives up when Mal draws a weapon, River holds him at gunpoint.

You mean at Haven when everybody, Zoe and Jayne included, backs down when Mal puls his pistol? Hard to fault Inara in particular in that case.

Quote:
Inara's force of personality was just enough for her to give up in exactly the same situation (Mal drawing a gun) except with Inara the gun wasn't meant for her, with River it was.

I'm having difficulty understanding this part. You say it's a greater test of character to threaten somebody with a gun than it is to make them see reason with words alone. Any fool can pull a gun.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

FLAME

Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Show me any other character standing up to Mal and having the will to see it through - aside from Simon in the movie who brilliantly manipulated Mal into doing what he wanted to do anyway (get Simon and River off his ship) and was just looking for an honorable excuse to do so.

I don't think Mal wanted Simon and River off of the ship at all. If he did, he would have just put them off the ship. Period. And he wouldn't have brought them back on the ship, later. Plus, he repeatedly refers to them as part of the crew throughout FIREFLY.

As to who stands up to Mal, she's not crew but Nandi does. Makes him change his mind about running.

Jayne stood up to Mal in Ariel. Wanted Simon and River off the boat. Then when Mal didn't comply (though immediately after the conversation with Jayne in the infirmary, Mal does tell Simon to keep River in her room unless he's got Mal's permission), Jayne contacted the feds himself. I'd say that's following through and going against Mal. But, of course, we all know that the feds nabbed Jayne, too, so he had to change his plan.

Then, I suppose we could say that Jayne backed down when Mal had him in the airlock, but what else could he do? Inara would back down too if she was about to get sucked into space. But even to the end, Jayne is making demands of Mal, "don't tell 'em what I did. Make up something."

And Mal does. Mal never tells anyone what Jayne did.

Jayne and Mal go back and forth a lot. There are times when Jayne backs down, because he knows Mal's right, but not when he knows Mal's wrong.

MAL
Funny how the Lawman got out of his
room. You having tied him up so well
and all.

JAYNE
I didn't have nothing to do with that.

Or in OBJECTS

MAL
The lockers were sealed. We both
know --

JAYNE
I don't leave my guns around, Mal.
And I don't leave 'em loaded.

MAL
Well somehow she got her hands on
your hardware. Suppose she took up
something with hull-piercing bullets?

JAYNE
Bullets is soft lead, Mal. Even Vera
could barely breach hull and she's
the best I got! Anyhow, let's direct
this conversation in a not-Jayne's-
fault direction.
I didn't make her crazy. Hell, I
didn't want her on the damn ship.

MAL
(in his face, quiet)
Is that the direction you want this
conversation to go in?

JAYNE
I just don't like taking a lashing
for what I ain't the cause of.

And Mal ceases the lashing.

SERENITY -

MAL
You wanna run this ship?

JAYNE
Yes!

Etc.

Jayne's leaving the room after "damn right I do" was not slinking, and it was not tail between legs, and I don't think it was even that Zoe scared him off. It was extreme anger and disgust. When I get that angry, I leave a room, too. Don't mean I'm backing down. Shooting script says he "stalks" off. Stalk - to walk off in anger. Then JAYNE proceeds, again like in Ariel, to try and remove River from the ship, no matter what Mal says. But River knocks him out.

~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
http://www.monkeyshinesbeadery.com/serenity/shindig/

FLAME

Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Consider this, if the only way to beat Rance is to kill him, and Inara knows this because Mal told her, why didn't Mal just tell Jayne to shoot Rance the first chance he got?

I have wondered that myself.

I think it's for the same reason Burgess' laser was "battery low" once Mal caught up to him (on a horse that can run as fast as a hovercraft)... gotta have drama. If Jayne had just plugged Burgess off the hovercraft the way he plugged the machine gunner, we wouldn't have a big dramatic ending!

~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
http://www.monkeyshinesbeadery.com/serenity/shindig/

FLAME

Saturday, June 10, 2006 8:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Jeepers cripes, guys. Here I was just trying to pose an innocent question, and WWII has broken out.

No war, just an honest brawl between folk.

~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
http://www.monkeyshinesbeadery.com/serenity/shindig/

CHRISTHECYNIC

Saturday, June 10, 2006 8:19 PM

My computer has just crashed three times in a row while I tried to respond to this post, I want to get this done before I call tech support though.

This means I'm just going to focus on one thing, and even after the computer is fixed, if it is fixed, I'm going to stick with this because I think it needs to be directly addressed and not lost while I try to find simpler words to say things in because your still not responding to what I actually say. (I'm not blaming you, I'm obviosuly the one who is comunicating badly.)

So here goes. (If you say something not on this point, no matter how much I think it needs a response, I'll ignore it.)

What makes you think Mal would have let Kaylee die without Inara there? Do you think Mal just doesn't like Kaylee? How is it that Inara's presence is required to make Mal keep Kaylee alive.

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Inara got Mal to give in. Simon would have been outh the arilock without a suit if Inara hadn't been there.

That would have left Kaylee dead.

To make it clear you repeat:

Quote:
Mal won't do what Simon has told him to do untill Inara tells him to and Kaylee moans. The important part there is Inara.

Meaning Kaylee dying loudly on her own wouldn't have provoked the same response.

Quote:
Simon would have been dropped on a shuttle with Dobson for the feds to pick up had Inara not gotten involved.

Dropped in a shuttle means that Kaylee will not get treatment from Simon (in the shuttle) or the Alliance(being avoided), and there is no one else to give it to her. Mal knows how important the next few minutes are.

The only possible result with respect to Kaylee is her death.

You say that this is what would have happened without Inara.

At first I thought you weren't thinking this through or I misunderstood, but you've made yourself clear, without Inara you believe that Mal would have let Kaylee die.

Why do you believe this? Do you have any evidence to back up the belief that Mal would do such a thing? Do you really think he cares that little about Kaylee?

VETERAN

Saturday, June 10, 2006 8:22 PM

Zoe. Hands down.

DAVESHAYNE

Saturday, June 10, 2006 8:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Flame:
I don't think Mal wanted Simon and River off of the ship at all. If he did, he would have just put them off the ship. Period. And he wouldn't have brought them back on the ship, later. Plus, he repeatedly refers to them as part of the crew throughout FIREFLY.

Becuase Simon and River are on Serenity Mal has to go farther out and take riskier jobs from less trustworthy people. Mal says as much during the long shot during the credits. But Mal is a man of honor he can't just throw them off the ship because it isn't the right thing to do. But if Simon and River leave on their own that's a somewhat different story. And then on Haven he's telling Book abaout how he should have just left them there. Now in the end Mal realized that he couldn't just leave them behind but that was after reflection.

Quote:
As to who stands up to Mal, she's not crew but Nandi does. Makes him change his mind about running.

Well sure but the conversation is regarding members of the crew.

Quote:
Jayne stood up to Mal in Ariel. Wanted Simon and River off the boat. Then when Mal didn't comply (though immediately after the conversation with Jayne in the infirmary, Mal does tell Simon to keep River in her room unless he's got Mal's permission), Jayne contacted the feds himself. I'd say that's following through and going against Mal.

Only in a situation in which Jayne thought Mal would never find out.

Quote:
But even to the end, Jayne is making demands of Mal, "don't tell 'em what I did. Make up something."

That wasn't a demand. That was begging. Begging for the tiniest scrap of mercy possible.

Quote:
Jayne and Mal go back and forth a lot. There are times when Jayne backs down, because he knows Mal's right, but not when he knows Mal's wrong.

MAL
Funny how the Lawman got out of his
room. You having tied him up so well
and all.

JAYNE
I didn't have nothing to do with that.

I'm missing the confrontation here. Mal asked a question and Jayne gave him an answer. No backing down needed.

Quote:
Or in OBJECTS

MAL
(in his face, quiet)
Is that the direction you want this
conversation to go in?

JAYNE
I just don't like taking a lashing
for what I ain't the cause of.

And Mal ceases the lashing.

Because Jayne backed down.

Quote:
Jayne's leaving the room after "damn right I do" was not slinking, and it was not tail between legs, and I don't think it was even that Zoe scared him off. It was extreme anger and disgust.

That is a possible interpretation of the script but the way I hear the line as it is delivered it doesn't sound like angry to me it sounds like scared. Angry would have been a bit louder I think as well as more forcefull. What I heard was a person belatedly realizing that he'd just said the wrong thing to the wrong man at the wrong time. Zoe was just the person who pointed that out to him.

Quote:
Then JAYNE proceeds, again like in Ariel, to try and remove River from the ship, no matter what Mal says. But River knocks him out.

Having been balked in his attempt to face down Mal, Jayne decides to attack what he thinks is a weaker target. Why after the events of the Maidenhead Jayne still thought River was a weak target I'll never know but Jayne isn't always the brightest. (Even though he is smarter when he sits down to it than many give him credit for; he just forgets to think things through a lot.)

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

DAVESHAYNE

Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Why do you believe this? Do you have any evidence to back up the belief that Mal would do such a thing? Do you really think he cares that little about Kaylee?

Only that untill Inara spoke up Mal was very stubornly refusing to accede to Simon's demand.

I think he cares very highly for Kaylee. Which is why he would also hesitate to make her - as well as everybody else that he cares for on the ship - a fugitive. As it turns out Dobbs didn't get the chance to ID Serenity to the cruiser but Mal couldn't know that.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

DAVESHAYNE

Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Flame:
Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Consider this, if the only way to beat Rance is to kill him, and Inara knows this because Mal told her, why didn't Mal just tell Jayne to shoot Rance the first chance he got?

I have wondered that myself. I think it's for the same reason Burgess' laser was "battery low" once Mal caught up to him (on a horse that can run as fast as a hovercraft)... gotta have drama. If Jayne had just plugged Burgess off the hovercraft the way he plugged the machine gunner, we wouldn't have a big dramatic ending!

Then don't blame Inara for also answering the call of dramatic necesity.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

CHRISTHECYNIC

Saturday, June 10, 2006 11:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Why do you believe this? Do you have any evidence to back up the belief that Mal would do such a thing? Do you really think he cares that little about Kaylee?

Only that untill Inara spoke up Mal was very stubornly refusing to accede to Simon's demand.

And he still was afterwards. Until Kaylee made a noise, he was against it. But you said that wasn't the important part, why? Inara told him to and all he did was raise his voice, his stance was exactly the same.

If Inara had been silent and Kaylee had been there dying and made that same noise you say that Mal would have let her die, the only thing you have as evidence for what you say is that his stance before Inara got involved was the same as before Simon said, "Run," and his stance after Inara got involved, but before Kaylee did, was the same as after Simon said, "Run," except louder.

I have trouble believing that Mal is as heartless as you claim based on that. Mal changed his mind when Kaylee cried out and I think that he would have done the same with or without Inara because the alternative is that Mal cares so little about Kaylee he'd just let her die.

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT PAGE