Strongest Woman

POSTED BY: deepgirl187
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 15:32
VIEWED: 11810
PAGE 4 of 7

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT PAGE

DAVESHAYNE

Saturday, June 10, 2006 5:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
It’s because of everyone on the crew who’s ever stood up to Mal Inara was the one who backed down most quickly and with her tail farthest between her legs, yet DAVESHAYNE says the opposite is true and when the fact was brought up he ignored it.

Have you ever thought of doing standup? Because you sure are funny. Inara is the only person on the ship who has gotten Mal to change his behavior by standing up to him. The only person.

Wash's best moment comes in War Stories where he resorts to sabotaging the shuttle because he can't bring himself to confront Mal regarding Zoe.

The closest Zoe has come to confronting Mal came in the movie right after the heist. This is Zoes big confrontation, "I don't disagree on any particular point...."

Jayne's big confrontation has already been dealt with but I'll repeat it here. Zoe, "You want to leave this room." Jayne, "Damn right I do," as he slinks off. If anybody has their tail between their legs on that crew it's Jayne.

Simon punches Mal. And for his trouble gets to take his sister with him when he leaves Serenity a developement which doesn't make Mal particularly unhappy.

I can't think of any instance when Kaylee has stood up to Mal. Not necesarilly saying it wouldn't happen but it never did.

Book did some sermonizing but never changed Mal's mind about anything that Mal had already decided upon.

River. Our wonderfull psychotic, psychic, assassin did have her moment on the bridge in the movie which puts her almost to the level of Inara in the department of forcefully dealing with Mal.

Which leaves us with Inara. Kaylee has been shot and Simon won't operate unless they run away from the cruiser. Mal is having none of it untill Inara says, "Mal do it!" Mal begins his don't tell me what to do speach when Kaylee groans and Mal changes his mind in the face of Inara's forcefull demand that he do what everybody knows is plainly the right thing to do.

Okay, Kaylee gets an assist on that since she was the one dying and Simon showed he is willing to confront Mal but wasn't himself succesfull in facing him down. As he never was throughout the remainder of the series.

Fast forward to Safe. Book has been shot and Simon has been kidnapped. Mal needs to find a doctor as soon as possible. Mal and Wash are on the bridge looking at lots of places that are too far away when Inara tells him where to go to find the medical facilities that are needed. Mal rather forcefully tells her no but she conitinues to confront him to make him do the right thing even though it means having to ask the Alliance for help.

So really the evidence is on my side of the argument.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

FLAME

Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
I wouldn't say she's weak because she let Rance get away I'd say she's profoundly inexperienced in a fight. (Doubt they train for that at the house)

Oh, but they do train for it. She knows hand-to-hand combat, to some extent (she tries to fight Saffon, who is companion trained, herself), and Inara knows swordfighting, and archery. Granted, probably more for show than for practical use, but I've always assumed companions were taught enough self-defense to know how to handle a client gone wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
and I would agree that standing up to Mal is something everyone does more or less, but I'd say she's strong because she left the place where she was respected and becoming a leader for reasons we don't know and she leaves and puts herself in a situation where she doesn't have any experience or sense of what to do and she not only does fine earning a living, but makes a place for herself with the crew. That's pretty strong or at least reasonably brave.

That's true. And we don't know much about her backstory. Could be a whole lot there that reveals a lot about her.

But I'd say she relies an awful lot on the currency of being a "registered companion" and the celebrity/influence it buys her, than real guts and gumption. I'd be "brave" too, if I knew I had more influence than a preacher and could just walk into a sheriff's station and rescue Mal and Zoe, and that anywhere I went in the 'verse the doors would be open to me. She's pretty useless when faced with someone (like Jubal Early) who doesn't respect her companion status nor fall for her wiles.

~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
http://www.monkeyshinesbeadery.com/serenity/shindig/

CHRISTHECYNIC

Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Jayne's big confrontation has already been dealt with but I'll repeat it here. Zoe, "You want to leave this room." Jayne, "Damn right I do," as he slinks off. If anybody has their tail between their legs on that crew it's Jayne.

Yeah, Jayne stands up to Mal and runs from Zoe, what does that have to do with Inara?

Skipping to the end though...

Quote:
River. Our wonderfull psychotic, psychic, assassin did have her moment on the bridge in the movie which puts her almost to the level of Inara in the department of forcefully dealing with Mal.

I'm sorry when was Inara as forceful as a loaded cocked gun in his face? Are you sure you're not the one in stand up?

Quote:
Which leaves us with Inara. Kaylee has been shot and Simon won't operate unless they run away from the cruiser.

So Simon is standing up to Mal? Why wasn't that in your list?

Quote:
Mal is having none of it untill Inara says, "Mal do it!"

At which point Mal is sill having none of it as proven by:

Quote:
Mal begins his don't tell me what to do speech

then

Quote:
when Kaylee groans and Mal changes his mind

true

Quote:
in the face of Inara's forcefull demand that he do what everybody knows is plainly the right thing to do.

Um, Kaylee's groan was a forceful demand on Inara's part? Inara does some really nice ventriloquism then because Mal only changed his Mind in face of Kaylee's groan at which point he did what Simon told him to do.

If Kaylee's groan counts as Inara winning why not Simon too? IN fact why not just tack everyone who had nothing to do with Kaylee doing that on? The only one responsible for the outcome other than Kaylee who made up Mal’s mind and Simon who made the demand was the guy who shot Kaylee thus making it all happen. Inara is not that guy, in case you didn't notice.

Quote:
Simon showed he is willing to confront Mal but wasn't himself succesfull in facing him down.

But he was as successful as Inara, which is to say he had no effect until Kaylee making pained noise came into it. If Simon doesn't get credit for changing a mind Inara doesn't either. Life might not be fair, but assessment should be.

If you really want to try to add meaning to that other than Kaylee deciding it Mal looks at Kaylee, then looks at Simon, then makes up his mind, then completely ignores Inara till well into the operation. The implication is that if anyone other than Kaylee made up his mind it was Simon.

Of course that's an if, and I tend to think Kaylee did it on her own, but if we are to assume that is not the case the evidence still points away from Inara as the reason.

Quote:
Fast forward to Safe. Book has been shot and Simon has been kidnapped. Mal needs to find a doctor as soon as possible. Mal and Wash are on the bridge looking at lots of places that are too far away when Inara tells him where to go to find the medical facilities that are needed. Mal rather forcefully tells her no but she conitinues to confront him to make him do the right thing even though it means having to ask the Alliance for help.

There was nothing forceful about that confrontation.

Quote:
So really the evidence is on my side of the argument.

Rewind to Serenity, Mal just said he will commit murder, Inara says it’s a bad idea, Mal says shut up in Chinese, she does instantly. She does go on to say, after giving up on convincing Mal not to commit murder, that she will leave if Mal is responsible for the death of Simon and River indirectly, but makes no effort to convince him not to kill them and Mal’s response is that it might be best if she did leave and she keeps her mouth shut not pressing the issue in the least.

The next confrontation they have is in Shindig, they're snapping at more than one point in time but the only time she tries to change his mind is when she tries to get him to escape, not only does she fail but he changes her

FLAME

Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
note that untill Nandi gets shot none of the defenders of the Heart Of Gold were killed. ... From the information Inara had to hand at the time of the confrontation (nobody has died yet, a rational man would not prefer to die for a pointless revenge, Rance hasn't threatened to do anything except take the baby) the correct thing to do is not kill Rance.

Several of the defenders of Heart of Gold were shot, but whether they were shot, dead or dancing a jig, I don't think Inara would have known because she was in with Simon, River and Petalaine during the gunfight.

But what Inara did know very well before the gunfight was that Mal thought Burgess was extremely dangerous - so dangerous that Mal wanted to take everyone and leave the planet. And she knew that Burgess would kill everyone in the place and then sleep well that night. And she knew Burgess had a gun pointing at Nandi and that Burgess had brought a bunch of men to kill everyone and destroy the place. She had to know he was not a rational man.

~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
http://www.monkeyshinesbeadery.com/serenity/shindig/

FLAME

Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 22Claws:
Inara doesn't decide to spare Burgess. She, hesitates and he breaks free (if I recall correctly). I think you're a little hard on Inara.
However, we've seen Zoe does not hesitate to slit a man's throat in battle. That makes her a better warrior, not necessarily a stronger woman.

You're right. I really don't like Inara, and for some reason I like her less and less the more I watch and re-watch FIREFLY and SERENITY. Not sure why. And I'm sure my dislike colors the way I interpret her actions.

But there are lots of reasons I think Zoe is stronger, like I said, than just about anyone else on the ship. Not just her warrior skill and physical strength, which is considerable, but her emotional resilience, composure, practicality, resourcefulness, loyalty, intelligence, and more.

~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
http://www.monkeyshinesbeadery.com/serenity/shindig/

DAVESHAYNE

Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
That puts her at two for nine

Which is two better than anybody else. Which was my point.

Show me any other character standing up to Mal and having the will to see it through - aside from Simon in the movie who brilliantly manipulated Mal into doing what he wanted to do anyway (get Simon and River off his ship) and was just looking for an honorable excuse to do so.

As you noted every other instance in which Inara backs down from Mal (ignoring silly arguments like the one in Trash) everybody else does as well. Which again was my point.

Addendum: River used a gun. Inara faced down Mal with the force of her personality. I think the personality one is a bigger test of guts.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

CHRISTHECYNIC

Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Which is two better than anybody else. Which was my point.

Show me any other character standing up to Mal and having the will to see it through

Simon in the very first episode, Kaylee in the unaired cut of the pilot, Zoe in the movie, Wash in War Stories...

Quote:
As you noted every other instance in which Inara backs down from Mal (ignoring silly arguments like the one in Trash)

Ignoring their biggest confrontation? How convienent for you.

So when Inara is telling Mal to do what Simon is telling Mal to do it and has no effect on the outcome that's important, but when she's talking about her LIFE that is silly?

Quote:
Addendum: River used a gun. Inara faced down Mal with the force of her personality. I think the personality one is a bigger test of guts.

Inara backs down with the threat of violence, River responds in kind. Inara gives up when Mal draws a weapon, River holds him at gunpoint.

Inara's force of personality was just enough for her to give up in exactly the same situation (Mal drawing a gun) except with Inara the gun wasn't meant for her, with River it was.

DAVESHAYNE

Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Flame:
She had to know he was not a rational man.

Why? Because she's read the script? Up to that point there was no reason for Inara to suspect that Rance wouldn't value his life more than the death of Nandi's. We have that information because we saw his little misogonystic pep rally but Inara could not have known.

Consider this, if the only way to beat Rance is to kill him, and Inara knows this because Mal told her, why didn't Mal just tell Jayne to shoot Rance the first chance he got? Probably because he as well thought that Rance alive could be reasoned with after the proper force was applied.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

DEEPGIRL187

Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:31 PM

Jeepers cripes, guys. Here I was just trying to pose an innocent question, and WWII has broken out. The idea of strength is subjective, I think. That being said, when I originally posed this question, I was wondering about everyone's personal opinions, not who's right and who's wrong. Ease down on those claws guys.

P.S. - And by the way, all of the women on Serenity are strong in their own way. Maybe asking who is the strongest woman wasn't the right way to phrase the question. Perhaps the best way to phrase it is "Who do you admire most for their strength."

*************************************************

It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.

22CLAWS

Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:35 PM

Jayne targeted biggest immediant threats (machine-guns, etc). Inara had him for a moment, but he escaped.
The only one who decided to spare Rance, was Mal. (with a pistol-whip, instead of a bullet).

22

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT PAGE