A well regulated Militia

POSTED BY: AnthonyT
UPDATED: Friday, July 25, 2025 19:29
VIEWED: 8277
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CITIZEN

Thursday, June 1, 2006 11:33 PM

Is this for or against? I've seen that thread, the guys unhinged and shouldn't be allowed near a plastic fork let alone a knife. That's the problem with weapons, they make people feel invincible and let them go around threatening people on the street, and it's often legal owners that do it too.

The nutter argument was based around the incident that spurred the British banning of concealable weapons, where some guy brought his legal weapons into a primary school and started shooting up the place.

I find it rather amusing that some people can't tell the difference between an accidental death and a murder.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

GUNRUNNER

Thursday, June 1, 2006 11:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
So you can have a musket, but a 9mm auto loader is right out. That's good to know, only 18th century weapons are constitutionally protected, everything else can be taken away.

I don't know a Minié ball can do a lot of damage to a man.

EV Nova Firefly mod Message Board:
http://s4.invisionfree.com/GunRunner/index.php?act=idx

PDCHARLES

Friday, June 2, 2006 12:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Is this for or against?

For...

When I was a freshman in high school there was a police raid executed and they found two pistols in lockers. Both were legal guns under the law. But, they were obtained on the street and were stolen. Just not sure if we made laws to ban guns completely we would be any better off. Yeah, take the existing guns and try to dispose of them. I’m sure thousands would somehow slip through the cracks into the wrong hands. (not saying that is your stance)

So, in the thread he used a knife... if we banned all guns what would be the next solution... he could of rammed him with his car. In fact, he could have come up with a lot of creative ways to damage the car. Anything short of becoming the Borg is not gonna change all of our ways in regards to violence. Believe me, I am all for a less barbaric society. I just think the people lobbying for gun bans could focus on some of the hotpoints you pointed out earlier like famine and disease. Ban the gun, here comes the laser

Are the majority of children dying from guns in the age range (mentioned in the article) murders or accidental deaths due to negligence?

The other part about "visions of the future" was just an attempt to expand the topic. So if we DID or DID NOT ban personal weapons, how would the future look?

Wha?!?... *sniff sniff* OH.... IM ON FIRE!!!

CAUSAL

Friday, June 2, 2006 12:39 AM

Citizen--

Shoot--I was hoping I could get the left-wing thing out of there before you saw it. That was just plain a low blow, and for that I apologize.

Honestly, though, I wish that you would hear what I am actually saying: I'm curious as to what people think of the whole swimming pool thing. Myself, personally, I think only a fool would use that to advocate in favor of private gun ownership (and that's not what I'm doing by putting it up there). Obviously, no one is going to lobby to make private swimming pools illegal (even though they are clearly dangerous). So what I'm wondering is, why do people use the "it's dangerous for kids" argument against guns (in view of the fact that there are other, more dangerous things out there)? Anybody have any thoughts on that? Seriously; what do you think?

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

CAUSAL

Friday, June 2, 2006 12:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Well twisting another person point of view into something it's not because then you can denigrate it is very right wing of you. You pick one of the many facets of the argument and say "yeah but swimming pools!"

Also, I thought I'd point out--AGAIN--that I was trying to prompt discussion of a phenomenon, not make an objection based on the swimming pool statistic. I'm not sure what you're not understanding about that--I'm honestly just curious to hear what people think about that, not use it to weigh in on one side or the other.

Quote:

And your bias is fairly self evident...

So it's a well-informed opinion when it agrees with you, and "bias" when it doesn't? Is that how that works? Speaking of high horses...

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

ANTHONYT

Friday, June 2, 2006 2:21 AM

Hey guys,

Proponents for and against gun guntrol use vivid imagery and anecdotal evidence to support their positions.

Banning Guns Argument? A couple of kids stole their grandpa's rifles, took them to school, and drilled their classmates full of holes. Or Gangstas drove past a mark and peppered the sidewalk with Tec-9 gunfire, killing 3 innocent bystanders and paralyzing an eight year old girl.

Tragedies.

Pro-Guns Argument? 30 year old woman shoots a man as he breaks down the front door of her home and advances on her. 60 year old man shoots a punk who threatened to carve him up with a knife. 28 year old man uses a gun to detain a naked home invader who broke in through his kids' bedroom window.

Victories.

We can imagine ourselves in any number of anecdotal situations. What father of a child shot dead wouldn't wish for guns to go away? What rape victim wouldn't wish for a revolver in their hand as they're being savaged?

It comes down to a tradeoff, apparently.

In a prolonged argument with Citizen, it was eventually shown that England has a higher rate of crime, including violent crime, than the US. But the US has a higher murder rate.

The United Kingdom has chosen to trade lives for crime. In the US, we seem to be trading crime for lives.

More people die here. More people are accosted there.

It is reasonable for someone to say, "It's worth having a higher risk of violent crime, in order to avoid more overall deaths." That is a fair and reasonable argument, and I am very glad that I finally understand the British position. There can be no doubt that their banning of guns (and all weapons, really) has reduced the number of lives needlessly lost.

But it is also reasonable for someone to say, "I don't want to be completely at the mercy of criminals. I want a chance to defend myself and my family if threatened."

I think these are both reasonable positions. Right now, my country allows me to hold the second position legally, and I am glad for it. Chances are I won't need to use a gun in my defense for the rest of my life. Chances are, if I was attacked unexpectedly, I wouldn't have the opportunity to defend myself before being subdued. But it's still an option. It's still a chance, if even only one chance in ten, that I can respond to a threat. That's the kind of option I want in my life.

As to the most recent question posed... Why do anti-gun activists always mention the threat of guns to children? Because it's the most effective anecdote possible. It's an anecdote that wrenches the heart, and changes minds. You're likely to hear pro-gun activists mention protecting their family for the same reason. The same gun that shot Billy could save Jane. And so it is the anectode that touches your heart more closely that will sway your opinion.

Perhaps the reason I advocate guns (and most weapons, really) is because I was accosted so often in my youth. I no longer desire to be powerless at the whim of a criminal. I suspect that the anti-gun crowd has similar feelings. They don't want to be powerless at the whim of a criminal...who is armed with a gun.

I believe that the anti-gun and pro-gun arguments share one thing in common. At their core, they are about retaining a degree of control and security in our lives. They are diametrically opposed paths to achieve the exact same result.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RUE

Friday, June 2, 2006 2:43 AM

"Why do anti-gun activists always mention the threat of guns to children?"

http://medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004) This makes firearms injuries one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S. The number of firearms-related injuries in the U.S., both fatal and non-fatal, increased through 1993, but has since declined steadily.(CDC, 2001) However, firearms injuries remain a leading cause of death in the U.S., particularly among youth (CDC, 2004).

The number of non-fatal injuries is considerable--over 200,000 per year in the U.S.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

CAUSAL

Friday, June 2, 2006 2:48 AM

[ sincerity ] Whoa. Anthony. Good post. [ /sincerity ]

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

RUE

Friday, June 2, 2006 2:55 AM

A second argument - the second amendment is the only provisional one.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html

The framers knew how to write unequivocal language, but chose not to. So, rather than assume those men didn't know what they were doing, rather than sliding over the words or reinterpreting them, we might attend to their meaning.

(PS I'm not anti-gun. But the arguments for 'arms' ownership are twisted by reflexive dogma.)

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

CITIZEN

Friday, June 2, 2006 8:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Casual:
I'm curious as to what people think of the whole swimming pool thing. Myself, personally, I think only a fool would use that to advocate in favor of private gun ownership (and that's not what I'm doing by putting it up there). Obviously, no one is going to lobby to make private swimming pools illegal (even though they are clearly dangerous).

Why didn't you say something like this in your original post?

Quote:
So what I'm wondering is, why do people use the "it's dangerous for kids" argument against guns (in view of the fact that there are other, more dangerous things out there)? Anybody have any thoughts on that? Seriously; what do you think?

Because there’s a big difference between accidental death and death at the 'hands' of a deadly weapon.

Quote:
I'm honestly just curious to hear what people think about that, not use it to weigh in on one side or the other.

Yet despite your protestations you're phrasing your posts like a for argument...

Quote:
So it's a well-informed opinion when it agrees with you, and "bias" when it doesn't? Is that how that works? Speaking of high horses...

Bias merely means you have a side. True it's often used as a slur or insult ("your bias prevents you seeing the evidence") but in these circumstances I used it to point out that your phrasing and what you were bring to the table were obviously down from a pro-gun position, not a neutral one.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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