Browncoats: Mars Needs You

POSTED BY: MarsOrBust
UPDATED: Saturday, May 13, 2006 01:45
VIEWED: 5954
PAGE 2 of 3

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 NEXT PAGE

CITIZEN

Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WishuponaWash:
WTF? The English Civil War had nothing to do with the American colonies. Learn some accurate history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Civil_War

Yes, I know. That was my point.

Thanks for missing it so completely.

Given that the English Civil war happened before Britain even really existed and since I said British Civil war not ENGLISH civil war I thought that would be fairly obvious. Evidently not.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

WEICHI

Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:13 PM

Well, this thread seems to have run away from the original point a tad, but I cannot resist one more comment. Those who admonish others to "learn some accurate history" would do well to not link Wikipedia as if it were some ultimate source.

I would never have gotten into this except I thought it was a call to Browncoats to save Veronica Mars.

See how I'm not punching him, I think I've grown!

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by StillFlyin:
The real problems arise when we reach Mars itself, there is little in the way of atmo, the everpresent danger of sandstorms and the temperature extremes.

Easily solved.
"Turn on da processors and give doze people air!"

Total Chrisisall

STILLFLYIN

Wednesday, May 10, 2006 6:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

"Turn on da processors and give doze people air!"

Total Chrisisall

My thoughts exactly. Terraforming the planet would be an excellent idea. You get the terraformer, we can turn it on and all breathe deep

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, May 10, 2006 6:45 PM

Uhh, well, aren't they already there?

Schitzoid embolism Chrisisall

MARSORBUST

Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:02 AM

Rose Darlin' you are assuming that transit to the planet will remain at current rates of propulsion.
Yes, with current chemical rocket propulsion a Mars shot would require 6 months or more. Soviet cosmonauts stayed on the old Mir Space Station much longer than that.
On paper, there are already designs for nuclear ion drives that would get peeps to Mars in 3 days and out to Jupiter in less than 2 weeks. There are already solar sail designs that could theoretically reach speeds of 1 quarter light speed..no shit.If one was to compare our space technologies to old maritime technology..we're still using oar boats, but never fear the sailing ships and even the steam ships are already on paper..just waiting for funding.
Also, at low elevations, Mars'atmo will provide some protection against rads and the shelters proposed by Zubrin and Co would provide plenty of protection.
In addition, sulfur has been found to be a ubiquitous feature of Martian soils, so sulfur dioxide is readily producable. Some folks do not know that there are already contingency plans to seed the upper atmo of the Earth with SO2 in the event of a runaway greenhouse event as SO2 reflect UV..in effect giving the Earth a pair of sunglasses with UV protection coatings. The same could be done to Mars to help filter UV rads down to manageble levels.
WE CAN Rose Darlin'..don't beleive all the WE CAN't you read..scientific publications at the turn of the last century stated that man would never fly. Think about it.

MARSORBUST

Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:36 AM

Not quite. There's a pressure problem for a start, Earth has a surface pressure of 1014 millibars, that's the pressure our bodies are 'designed' to survive at. The surface pressure of Mars is about 9 millibars, not much above the Vacuum of space. This is one of the reasons any greenhouse effect on Mars is so low, there's simply not enough atmosphere to hold the heat in.

Apparently you were not listening. Yes, currently there is a pressure problem. It has been found that a raise of 4 degrees celsius at the south pole would evaporate the south polar cap..releasing massive amounts of CO2 into the atmo..raising temps and pressure..this releases even greater amounts that locked in the soil. According to Zubrin, who vastly smarter than either you or I, this is possible and would create enough surface pressure to allow the trade of expensive pressure suit for scuba like gear (notice I said scuba-like).
Also, Mars does get warmer at times than generally known..there have been summer temps as high as 80 F.

Due to this only a few places on Mars reach above 0c and only in direct sunlight. In fact the surface of Mars can get so cold Carbon Dioxide falls as snow (~-78c). Cold weather gear wouldn't defend you against that level of cold and Scuba gear would not help with the pressure. Also Scuba gear is designed to work to positive pressure, not negative pressure environments.

Again I was refering to conditions AFTER the partial terraform.

In order to get the same effect Mars would need an atmosphere with a much greater concentration of greenhouse gases with an atmosphere at least as thick as that of Earth. This means a massive Terraforming plan that can not be achieved with 19th century level technology.

Notice that I said GREENHOUSE FARMING..greenhouses can be pressurized.

Silane is a compound of Silicon and Hydrogen. It still requires Oxygen to burn, burning is a chemical reaction; it is a rapid oxidisation, thus requiring oxygen.

And I quote from Robert Zubrin's "The Case for Mars", page 202: "Why store silane? Because silane will burn in carbon dioxide......Not many things will burn in carbon dioxide, but silane will, in accordance with: SiH4 + 2CO2--SiO2 + 2C + 2H2O" Argue with a bonafide rocket scientist if you wish.

Quote:
The one thing that would be difficult to do on-planet would be the kind of sophisticated electronics that we take for granted as copper appears to be quite rare based upon soil samples. High tech items would have to be imported from Earth at high cost..sorry computer geeks.

What has copper got to do with computers? Computers are constructed from plastics, silicon, Gold/Silver and solder (alloy of Tin and Lead). Copper is used in wiring because it is a reasonably good conductor and cheap, there are plenty of alternatives.

My bad..I double checked and it is the Moon that is copper poor. Zubrin was refering to metals that are important to modern technological industies. Gold however is produced by hydrolic geologic processes that may not have occured for long enough duration in martian history; for gold and other metals to exist in large accessable quantities.

Quote:
Nitrates also appear to scarce but what this might creat is a situation in which soebody might be willing to pay your way if you bring your jar of pennies and a bag of manure as both those things would be as gold in a Martian economy.

It really doesn't make sense to be seeding Mars with manure from Earth. Terraforming to a degree would be required, quite a fascinating subject in itself and obtainable with modern technology, but I don't have time to get into it now.

Well perhaps you should read the book, again written by a man vastly smarter than you or I before you decide what is possible and what is not, Thank you.

WISHUPONAWASH

Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:51 AM

Apoligies Citizen. I am sometimes a little slow on things , and get quite easily rattled up my own tight pasty english bottom.

As for linking to Wikipedia, well I find it's better then most of the tripe of the net.

Here's how it might of been http://www.stillflying.net

CITIZEN

Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MarsOrBust:
Apparently you were not listening. Yes, currently there is a pressure problem. It has been found that a raise of 4 degrees celsius at the south pole would evaporate the south polar cap..releasing massive amounts of CO2 into the atmo..raising temps and pressure..this releases even greater amounts that locked in the soil. According to Zubrin, who vastly smarter than either you or I, this is possible and would create enough surface pressure to allow the trade of expensive pressure suit for scuba like gear (notice I said scuba-like).

Firstly you did not say scuba like, you said off the shelf scuba gear. Increasing the temperature by 4 degrees is not 'easy' and it has not been proven that it can kick off a runaway greenhouse effect on Mars, for a start there may only be 100mb of Carbon on Mars according to some estimates, which is simply not enough.

Oh and the Terraforming method your talking about is Kian Cochrane's Terraforming. The most feasible means of starting this process uses 20 kiloton nuclear weapons, not 19th century technology. In fact I can't think of a 19th century way of raising Mars polar temperature, maybe you can enlighten me?

Lastly:
According to Zubrin, who vastly smarter than either you or I
You don't know that and it doesn't make him right

.

Quote:
Also, Mars does get warmer at times than generally known..there have been summer temps as high as 80 F.

Mars has an average temperature of -63c, a minimum of -140c and an absolute maximum of 20c (68f) in direct sunlight.

Quote:
Again I was refering to conditions AFTER the partial terraform.

Scuba gear is still designed to work in pressures higher that Earth surface pressure, not lower, your following statement:

Quote:
Notice that I said GREENHOUSE FARMING..greenhouses can be pressurized.

Indicates that your Mars terraforming still leaves us with a low pressure environment. How much pressure are we talking about and is it enough to prevent decompression injuries to Human beings?

Quote:
And I quote from Robert Zubrin's "The Case for Mars", page 202: "Why store silane? Because silane will burn in carbon dioxide......Not many things will burn in carbon dioxide, but silane will, in accordance with: SiH4 + 2CO2--SiO2 + 2C + 2H2O" Argue with a bonafide rocket scientist if you wish.

I'm not taking up an argument with Dr Zubrin at all; I'm taking up an argument with your interpretation of what he is saying. You say we can throw a log of Silane on the fire to run our steam engine. Well you can’t, Silane is a gas.

Quote:
Gold however is produced by hydrolic geologic processes that may not have occured for long enough duration in martian history; for gold and other metals to exist in large accessable quantities.

Gold is believed to be produced within stars, it’s concentrated by ‘hydrolic(hydraulic?) geologic’ processes, not created. There was liquid water on Mars so there’s no reason why there wouldn’t be enough gold to support industry, not a certainty, since we haven’t done geological surveys.

Quote:
Well perhaps you should read the book, again written by a man vastly smarter than you or I before you decide what is possible and what is not, Thank you.

So you don’t have an answer then? I never said it was impossible to transport manure from Earth, I said it was unfeasible. Do you have any concept how expensive it’s to put payload into orbit, let alone carry it to Mars? You want to pay that price for shit? There’s plenty of dirt on Mars and there are processes where this soil could be reclaimed and fertilised with synthetic fertilisers, why not do that, rather than carry huge tonnage of bio mass at ridiculous cost?

Oh and I know he’s your hero and all but you don’t know he’s more intelligent than anyone and that doesn’t make him right and it doesn’t make your understanding of his argument correct either, so the argument “He’s cleverer than you so shut up” doesn’t hold much water.

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:25 PM

Personally I think that caves would be a better choice then domes. In a cave the only materials you need are the airlocks to fit in the tunnels, as opposed to domes that would require very large structures be transported or built on the planet itself. Also when you want to expand you just put another airlock deeper down in the cave, and there is less chance of being struck by a meteor (which is a little bit more of a problem on Mars if I remember correctly).

Another possibility would be to wall off portions of the canals and build cities in them, again this would take less material, be less vulnerable and take less construction time than a dome of equal size. Thoughts anyone?

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 NEXT PAGE