General Discussions
The Relevance of Serenity
POSTED BY: MarsOrBust
UPDATED: Monday, May 8, 2006 08:22
VIEWED: 8521
PAGE 3 of 5
Sunday, May 7, 2006 9:54 PM
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Originally posted by fredgiblet:Quote:
Originally posted by MarsOrBust:
I fear that I have given my fellow Browncoats the impression that I am some die-hard Republican.
Exaclty the impression you were giving.Quote:
Not at all, I just consider them to be the lesser of two evils. I do not consider the sh** we are in to be a case of "Good guys vs bad Guys"; oh no..its bad guys vs worse guys and its just a matter of one's filter as to who the worse guys are. Its Aliens vs Predator, baby..no matter who wins we lose.
Agree with the lesser of two evils, disagree the Republicans are the lesser.
Well my friend, if you beleive that all that(Patriot Act/Homeland Security) is going to go away if the Dems retake power in November and '08, I will have to call you naive. The emphasis will merely shift from external threats to "internal threats". Clinton ignored many of the threats posed by Islamis extremism in favor of emphasis on "Domestic Terrorism" The apparatus you fear was already there, it was merely expanded after 9-11.
Do you remember Ruby Ridge and Waco? Many will give Clinton carte blanche on those because the folks they killed were either white seperatists or Christians, but that doesn't change the fact that what occured in those incidences were wholly unconstitutional. If I have to choose from an apparatus that spies on al-qaida or one that spies on me for being a white guy with a gun..I will choose the former.
Please note that Red China is a Democratic Party contributor. Thats enough for me. If the Communist Party in China wants Dems in power..I don't.Quote:
How about we all start thinking about the formation of an Interplanetary Libertarian Party that advocates the following:
-the opening of the Solar System to colonization through the private sector.
-low taxes and low spending
-freedom of religion or freedom from it.
-complete freedom of choice in all matter concerning one's own body. This would cover everything like smoking, drugs, sexual preference, diet, etc.
-freedom to bear arms.
-add yours here.
You forgot arming bearsI know its cheap and stupid but it still brings a smile to my face.
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The truth it seems to me is that freedom requires frontier. That being said, freedom will always be in flight away from the institutionalized infrastructure that always comes with high population densities.
I think is what being a Browncoat is truly about.Quote:
Do not let my apparent Republicanism fool you: I fully advocate the idea of cigarette smoking, dope smoking, cheese-burger eating homo-sexuals with assault rifles..lol.
So I'm safe then?Quote:
In other words I like freedom for all as long as everybody is willing to accept personal responsibility for that freedom.
And the lack of personal responsibilty is what I hate the most about our civilization.Quote:
IMO, those who advocate for higher taxes and bigger government seek to "empower" themnselves at the expense of others freedom from big government.
Interestingly enough with the Patriot Act Big Brother has never been bigger, but that was put into place by the low tax people.
Conservatives will always favor a larger security apparatus during times of conflict and advocate its downsizing or dismantling in times of peace. The Dem advocate expanded government in any case.Quote:
I just want to get the F*** out of here before the trap completely closes.
Bush is going to beat you to Mars, better just shoot for...for...um...well...I suppose one of Jupiters moons...I guess.
The nature of the struggle of history is that it has always been propelled by military considerations. The struggle is currently breaking gravity with the militarization of space.
an undeclared space race between the US and China is already underway. It is unfortunate that this is the case, but private citizen will eventually follow. I really don't care how it happens..as long as it doesNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Sunday, May 7, 2006 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Moss:Quote:
Originally posted by MarsOrBust:
Howdy,
Like everybody else here i think that Serenity/Firefly is about the shiniest thing ever, but I wonder how many fans understand the metaphors pertinent to our own society and the direction that it is heading.
As an aspiring writer and avid reader of History, it has occured to me that Humanity can be generally divided into two different and diametrically opposed gestalt-consciousnesses. There are Freedom People and there are Security People.
"Freedom" as conceived of in the American Experienceis one that was born and fostered in a frontier environment. The idea being that we are free to do as we please as long as we are not physically harming another individual or damaging another's property. As anyone can see, we have moved very far away from this and have for the most part done so willingly in exchange for a greater amount of perceived Security.
Part of this or maybe most of it is due to population density. The more people there are in any given space, the more thier activities will have some effect on others. In other words, the more people there are, the less freedom you have.
This is manifested today in the legal phenomena known as Community Rights. We see more and more the rights of the individual being submerged in the interests of the collective. As population continues to grow roughly exponentially, how is it that freedom will survive this century? To me the obvious answer is that it won't, at least for those not willing to say good-bye to this world and exchange its security for the freedom of the Frontier.
It is likely that before mid-century that we will live under a Global Government. We will all have health-care, large-scale warfare will be non-existent, everybody will get an education, criminal enterprise will be very difficult, our children will be very safe...and we will all do exactly what the f*** we are told.
I think that most relevant metaphor represented in this wonderful story is that greater security will always come at the price of reduced freedoms.
This argument is the basis of the Culture War that rages in American politics today.
So what are you? Pro-Alliance (liberal) or a Browncoat (conservative/Libertarian)?
I am new here, so I'm quite sure that this topic is common on this board. I'm just trying to get a feel for who's out here and why other than for thier justifiable love for Serenity.
The only thing that keeps me from moving around from place to place wondering "what the hell is going on in the world?" is my wife and kids.
In the "verse" the Alliance world is much the same as our own, Mal & his crew are outlaws, breaking the law, robbery, smuggling etc. As in every walk of life there are good people as well as bad, I suppose you could call the crew "good outlaws".
I doubt if the crew of Serenity would even bother about politics, rather seek to avoid authority, make enough money to enjoy life as they see fit.
As to whether I am a freedom lover or security lover. Before I was married I was definately a freedom lover however, I wouldnt have been able to find a wife and have children if I wouldn't have tried to fit into society. So in answer to your question, in my heart I am a browncoat in reality I have had to choose to live in the "secure" world.
Yes, I'm a single father myself and it seems that having a family moves one from the freedom side of the spectrum to the security side.
It is interesting that as Americans, we talk a lot about freedom but i don't think that most of us truly know what it is and most of them wouldn't want it if they did. They don't want to be free. They want to be entertained and taken care of. They have traded thier freedom for what the Romans refered to as "bread and circuses".
The freedom of the frontier will not be for the timid or the easily bored as it will be akin to warfare psychologically: tedium punctuated by moments of sheer terror.
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Sunday, May 7, 2006 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MarsOrBust:
Well, I hope you enjoy Hillary's turn-key police state.
Not going to vote for Hillary, if it comes down to her or some a**hole who thinks the Bible is the law and corporations are victims then I'll vote Green or Libertarian.
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The War on Terror will become the Alliance Unification War as libs will make no distinction between Islamic terrorists and domestic social conservatives as the Humanist/Globalist filter views them both as being different facets of the same threat to their Globalist hegemony.
And you are the person saying that thinking that Republicans being a Theocratic front is paranoia? The evidence for that is fairly strong, I havn't seen a liberal who thinks social conservatives are terrorists.
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Domestic spying will not be curtailed under Dem rule my friend, it will expanded to include you if you disagree with them on their agenda.
Are you sure your name isn't PirateNews? While I agree that domestic spying is probably here to stay, I find it unlikely that the Democrats will be much worse than the neo-cons in this regard.
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I know you don't like Big Oil..I don't either, but one has to be very careful who they get in bed with to address thier greivances.
I think that supermodels are a good choice
seriously though at least the liberals put on a show about helping the little guy, the conservatives and big corporations don't even pretend.Quote:
My dad was carreer military..intelligence community during the Cold War. I am weel versed in the history of the Marxist movement and the end of the Cold War was not the end of the struggle. They are still amonst us and many of them can be found under the label: "Liberal".
That explains the paranoia. The term Liberal means anyone on the left (unfortunately). Just like the term Conservative means anyone on the right (Islamic militants, fundamentalist christians who belive that everyone who disagrees should be punished (e.g. the Phelps clan)). As for the Marxists who are "still among us", perhaps you would like to ressurect the House Un-American Activities Commitee?
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I will take my chances with Big Oil fat cats, thank you very much.
You are quite welcome to make that choice. If you change your mind, the rest of us will be welcome you (or at least I will).
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Sunday, May 7, 2006 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by sacredchao:Quote:
Originally posted by MarsOrBust:
. . . I suppose it would depend on one's filter.
Absolutely, though many forget that they too have such a filter in place.
Yes, I have a freedom filter.Quote:
Personally I think we are screwed no matter which way we go as our diminishing freedom is the result of over-population. Government seems to grow unabated regardless of who is in charge because the proliferation of people= the proliferation of Law to govern their affairs.
I am not sure I agree, though it could take too many words to explain. I think have ONE governing body over too many people leads to problems (perhaps addressing your reference to 'over population') as does the policing of too many activities.Quote:
I beleive it is possible to get to totalitarianism by going to far to the left or the right.
Agreed.Quote:
I am a Republican however for the following reasons: the republicans want to lower my taxes, not raise them, they don't want to take away my guns and they don't want to surrender our national sovereignty to the UN.
To me, it does little to lower my taxes and continue to spend at an ever increasing rate (even when accounting for increased expeditures due to wars the past 4+ years). This money will have to be accounted for, whether by me & you or our children. If not a tax now, on us, then a tax on those yet to be born. Personally, I would rather have the spending cut AND THEN address tax cuts. I also do not trust the government on the issue of guns either. I feel few in Washington know the true nature of the Second Amendment.Quote:
Many liberal are Globalists, which in the metaphorical sense makes them Alliance in my book.
Many are, and I feel that many Capitalistic corporations are 'globalist' as well. Also, remember NAFTA and President Bush's expansion. The Republicans are no better in this regard, but instead of being driven by what they feel will help the poor, they seem to be driven by what the feel with help the corporations.
Well my friend, here we find the two parallel routes to the Alliance. The Free market Global Economy is obsoleting the the institution of the Nation-State as we understand it. Old Mutual-Security constructs like the nation-state are going away. Its Oneness vs Otherness. As Globalization takes more control of society's higher functions (Oneness), Balkanization results as Otherness downsizes in order to retain a sense of cultural/ideological/religious/ take your pick identity.
Eventually there will be no nation-state big enough or powerful enough to resist UN rule.
We are headed for that here in the US. The US did not win the Cold War; the Cold War powers destroyed each other..they just died first. The Culture War with its deep divisions excarbated by Mexican pan-nationalism that uses American liberalism as a vehicle will probably result in the break-up of the US into at least 3 peices: Red, Blue, and Brown.
Then China will be the only remaining super-power and will assume the UN Peace-Keeping role that we are currently filling. The word that comes to mind is Screwed.
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Sunday, May 7, 2006 10:39 PM
Piratenews needs to read this thread.
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Sunday, May 7, 2006 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:Quote:
Originally posted by MarsOrBust:
Well, I hope you enjoy Hillary's turn-key police state.
Not going to vote for Hillary, if it comes down to her or some a**hole who thinks the Bible is the law and corporations are victims then I'll vote Green or Libertarian.
Actually I very well might vote Libertarian myself. Never green however as environmentalism is often just a vehicle for more socialism.Quote:
The War on Terror will become the Alliance Unification War as libs will make no distinction between Islamic terrorists and domestic social conservatives as the Humanist/Globalist filter views them both as being different facets of the same threat to their Globalist hegemony.
And you are the person saying that thinking that Republicans being a Theocratic front is paranoia? The evidence for that is fairly strong, I havn't seen a liberal who thinks social conservatives are terrorists.
I have encountered plenty of them. They make no distinction.Quote:
Domestic spying will not be curtailed under Dem rule my friend, it will expanded to include you if you disagree with them on their agenda.
Are you sure your name isn't PirateNews? While I agree that domestic spying is probably here to stay, I find it unlikely that the Democrats will be much worse than the neo-cons in this regard.
And won't be as long as you agree with them.Quote:
I know you don't like Big Oil..I don't either, but one has to be very careful who they get in bed with to address thier greivances.
I think that supermodels are a good choice
Yes, "put on a show" is the operative phrase. Thier agenda is a world-wide socialist state and they will sell that to you anyway they can.
Capitalism/free enterprise lifts up the whole of Humanity albeit slower than most of us would like. Ask yourself: 100 yrs ago who had plumbing and electricity in thier homes? Rich folks of course. Who has it now? Just about everybody (in Western Civilization).
Free Enterprise gives the people the ability to empower themselves. Socialists want to be carried.
If socialism prevails, the profit motive which has lead to the creation of almost every major invention that makes our lives so much easier and more interesting than it would otherwise be will be stymied to the point of technological stagnation.
Study the Soviet Union my friend, You don't want it.Quote:
My dad was carreer military..intelligence community during the Cold War. I am weel versed in the history of the Marxist movement and the end of the Cold War was not the end of the struggle. They are still amonst us and many of them can be found under the label: "Liberal".
That explains the paranoia. The term Liberal means anyone on the left (unfortunately). Just like the term Conservative means anyone on the right (Islamic militants, fundamentalist christians who belive that everyone who disagrees should be punished (e.g. the Phelps clan)). As for the Marxists who are "still among us", perhaps you would like to ressurect the House Un-American Activities Commitee?
it is not a matter of paranoia. Its a fact. Read Antonio Gramsci's "Long March Through the Institutions" its all right there. Most of the Dem Party leadership are former 60's radicals that advocated the overthrow of our way of life in favor of a socialist system. That is not paranoia..it is a fact.
Perhaps the Fascists and the marxists were correct in that democracy will eventually give way to one or the other. Either the US will be submerged under a UN global socialist regime or the world will be crushed under the jackboots of American fascism. It seems I'm being given the choice of Oppressed or Oppressor. I prefer to get the F*** out of here a be a pioneer, but you can call me the names you like..if I am limited to the two first choices..well better to be the one doing the screwingNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Sunday, May 7, 2006 11:10 PM
First please learn to use the quotes, it makes posts really hard to read when the quote tags are screwed up.
Quote:
Originally posted by MarsOrBust:
Actually I very well might vote Libertarian myself. Never green however as environmentalism is often just a vehicle for more socialism.
But it is not much worse than the crap we put up with now.
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I have encountered plenty of them. They make no distinction.
I will have to take your word for it.
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Capitalism/free enterprise lifts up the whole of Humanity albeit slower than most of us would like. Ask yourself: 100 yrs ago who had plumbing and electricity in thier homes? Rich folks of course. Who has it now? Just about everybody (in Western Civilization).
And capitalism gets ALL the credit? I seem to remember that even the Soviet Union had some advances in technology.
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Free Enterprise gives the people the ability to empower themselves. Socialists want to be carried.
Some of them maybe. Me I just don't want to be in debt for rest of my life because I went to college or got sick.
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If socialism prevails, the profit motive which has lead to the creation of almost every major invention that makes our lives so much easier and more interesting than it would otherwise be will be stymied to the point of technological stagnation.
Agree, however it should be balanced, unrestricted capitalism causes problems even as it fixes others. For instance, Wal-Mart screws over its employees s othat it can wring every last bit of profit from them. Enron uses the lack of regulations to screw over everyone else while they make billions, the list goes on.
I am not anti-capitalist, but I do think we should have restrictions.
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it is not a matter of paranoia. Its a fact. Read Antonio Gramsci's "Long March Through the Institutions" its all right there. Most of the Dem Party leadership are former 60's radicals that advocated the overthrow of our way of life in favor of a socialist system. That is not paranoia..it is a fact.
OK, I am way to lazy to read a whole book just to debate with you, so I'll take your word for it. Unfortunately the Republican leaders have shown a remarkable lack of interst in protecting the people as well. Essentially our entire governmental systm is broken and both sides are to blame. I just think that the people who insist that I follow their religious beliefs, and bow down to the mega-corps are not the people I want to follow
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Perhaps the Fascists and the marxists were correct in that democracy will eventually give way to one or the other.
Either the US will be submerged under a UN global socialist regime or the world will be crushed under the jackboots of American fascism. It seems I'm being given the choice of Oppressed or Oppressor. I prefer to get the F*** out of here a be a pioneer, but you can call me the names you like..if I am limited to the two first choices..well better to be the one doing the screwing than being the one getting screwed.
The problem is that you would not be the one doing the screwing, unless you are a politician or a corporate elite. In a Republican-run government the little guys (you and me) get screwed so that the big guys can get another billion.
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I'd rather opt out of the whole argument and get my ass to Mars.
I hear that its pretty chilly and lonely there, send a card. :)
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Sunday, May 7, 2006 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
First please learn to use the quotes, it makes posts really hard to read when the quote tags are screwed up.
Please don't be a pretentious ass.Quote:
Originally posted by MarsOrBust:
Actually I very well might vote Libertarian myself. Never green however as environmentalism is often just a vehicle for more socialism.
But it is not much worse than the crap we put up with now.
Yes, but worse nonetheless.Quote:
I have encountered plenty of them. They make no distinction.
I will have to take your word for it.Quote:
Capitalism/free enterprise lifts up the whole of Humanity albeit slower than most of us would like. Ask yourself: 100 yrs ago who had plumbing and electricity in thier homes? Rich folks of course. Who has it now? Just about everybody (in Western Civilization).
And capitalism gets ALL the credit? I seem to remember that even the Soviet Union had some advances in technology.
Copied from western civilization.Quote:
Free Enterprise gives the people the ability to empower themselves. Socialists want to be carried.
Some of them maybe. Me I just don't want to be in debt for rest of my life because I went to college or got sick.
And progressive taxation under a liberal regime is going to help that..LOL.Quote:
If socialism prevails, the profit motive which has lead to the creation of almost every major invention that makes our lives so much easier and more interesting than it would otherwise be will be stymied to the point of technological stagnation.
Agree, however it should be balanced, unrestricted capitalism causes problems even as it fixes others. For instance, Wal-Mart screws over its employees s othat it can wring every last bit of profit from them. Enron uses the lack of regulations to screw over everyone else while they make billions, the list goes on.
Yes, the Enron guys should be shot, I agree. Wal-Mart on the other hand is the product of market forces. You don't like Wal-Mart..get folks to stop shopping at Wal-Mart..Good Luck.
I am not anti-capitalist, but I do think we should have restrictions.Quote:
it is not a matter of paranoia. Its a fact. Read Antonio Gramsci's "Long March Through the Institutions" its all right there. Most of the Dem Party leadership are former 60's radicals that advocated the overthrow of our way of life in favor of a socialist system. That is not paranoia..it is a fact.
OK, I am way to lazy to read a whole book just to debate with you, so I'll take your word for it.
And here is the crux of the matter. You and yours take the word of a media that was infiltrated and taken over by socialists decades ago and you do so apparently without question. By your own admission, you are too lazy to go and honestly investigate it for yourself. The books are all there in your public library my friend. Go look and get an honest assessment of what is going on before you condemn those that disagree with you, especially those of us that have developed their own informed opinion by investigating what the facts truly are for themselves.Quote:
Perhaps the Fascists and the marxists were correct in that democracy will eventually give way to one or the other.
Either the US will be submerged under a UN global socialist regime or the world will be crushed under the jackboots of American fascism. It seems I'm being given the choice of Oppressed or Oppressor. I prefer to get the F*** out of here a be a pioneer, but you can call me the names you like..if I am limited to the two first choices..well better to be the one doing the screwing than being the one getting screwed.
The problem is that you would not be the one doing the screwing, unless you are a politician or a corporate elite. In a Republican-run government the little guys (you and me) get screwed so that the big guys can get another billion.
I trust the private sector with those billions far more than I do an impending socialist regime that will use that revenue tNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Monday, May 8, 2006 12:45 AM
Quote:Whoah there, Tex, the first mark of a non-Browncoat is thinkin' they can judge who is or ain't Browncoats (Browncoats also don't generally use the word 'pinko'
Originally posted by MarsOrBust:
You are more than welcome to stay here and chase your pinko utopian ideas into totalitarian oblivion if you wish. Mars will be for the capable, not for the timid looking to be taken care of. A Browncoat you are not.
). Not sayin' you ain't one, just be careful, we're all here for the same reasons, and should respect each other, K?Let's get back to talkin' about Mars, or some such thing.
Suddenly, moderator Chrisisall
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Monday, May 8, 2006 1:38 AM
Wait, we're going to Mars? Yea!
Wait, we have to be capable and won't be taken care of there? You mean, there aren't any amenities on Mars?
Wait, we have to go with someone who calls someone else a pretentious ass for making a reasonable request? (It IS hard to read. Fred wasn't making it up.)
I guess you can count me out. I'll just wait for the flight to Europa. No trolls there, so I've heard.
"We need to keep our heads so we can ... keep our heads."
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