Firefly politically incorrect?

POSTED BY: Bugboy
UPDATED: Monday, January 5, 2004 18:06
VIEWED: 15813
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BUGBOY

Monday, December 15, 2003 2:21 PM

In this day and age when the establishment is painting the world in shades of black and white, as so un-inspiringly offered by our president's "you're either with us or against us" statement, I can't help but wonder if Firefly's portrayal of the infinite shades of gray that is the real world's rights and wrongs isn't rubbing some people the wrong way. That could explain the lack of interest from the networks, as people seem to prefer simple themes of right and wrong rather than the subtle nuances of Firefly's, which may be over the head of the common tv viewer.

Book's singularly brilliant line at the end of the pilot illustrates this perfectly when he says something along the lines of "...and I just saw the captain kill a man I swore to protect and I am not even sure I think it was wrong."

Just a thought that occured to me after seeing the post about Star Wars fans coming to be Firefly fans. Star Wars is unquestionably black and white, good and evil, and Firefly is anything but that. Any comments?

"If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak!" - Jayne

BUCKTHORN

Monday, December 15, 2003 3:28 PM

It's a good point, and I think one of my favorite aspects of the show was that their morality was in question... I mean Jayne was a great guy and we all loved him, but he still sold out Simon and River on Ariel.

The moment that really sold me on the show was when Mal shoved the henchman through the engine on "The Train Job". For a second I was worried that this was one of those things where the henchman would dog him show after show but... .Mal did pretty much what I would want to see my acton hero do... and the sensible thing given his situation. :)

I agree it could make people uncomfortable... but I think TTJ set up their morality quite well. Maybe Joss made the show a little too real for some people to handle.

MANIACNUMBERONE

Monday, December 15, 2003 6:49 PM

I can see why some folk might argue for Star Wars being only black and white, good vs evil, but I see it as fairly shadowed.

It seemed in Star Wars that there were many fence-sitting characters, and characters who were thinking they were doing good when they were not, and many characters who were so deceptive as to appear good to everyone while maintaining their evil. (you know 95% truth, 5% lies is a lot more deceptive than 100% lies)

I thought Anakin's struggle with morality very non clear-cut. What I mean is, not so black and white.

It's really speculative though, now that I come to think of it. It depends on your point of view. Like Joss was talking about in objects in space. Objects, (people included and their actions) are separate from any meaning we might give them, so giving them a label like good or evil is purely for our own benefit. They can not be inherently either.

Anyway Bugboy, you have a point, people don't like shows that make them think too much and though I don't think Star Wars was entirely black and white, I do think Firefly is much less so. (see how I categorized them for my own benefit and yours though anyway, and fit them into a tidy little system of understanding so that we can agree or disagree?)

-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
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BUGBOY

Monday, December 15, 2003 8:11 PM

Yes, I may have over-simplified Star Wars as being black and white, but relative to the degree which Firefly is black and white, it is much more so. As I wrote the post, having rented both Star Wars DVD's this weekend, I thought perhaps that wasn't the greatest example as many questions were left unanswered as to what was good and what was evil. Hopefully the next (last? third?) movie will answer those questions. But you see my point, it's unfortunate but television today is not for the insightful.

"If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak!" - Jayne

JRC

Monday, December 15, 2003 8:40 PM

I know any comparison between Firefly and Star Trek is frowned at, but I believe there is a lot in common with our Firefly and the last couple of seasons of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. There were so many episodes that were totally unlike any Star Trek that came before, shows that dealt with the darker side of humanity (and their alien counterparts). It really showed all aspects of human emotion.

Talk peace, but, carry a BIG stick.

BUCKTHORN

Monday, December 15, 2003 9:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
It's really speculative though, now that I come to think of it. It depends on your point of view. Like Joss was talking about in objects in space. Objects, (people included and their actions) are separate from any meaning we might give them, so giving them a label like good or evil is purely for our own benefit. They can not be inherently either.

I agree, and that's one of the reasons that I like the show so much... they're not good or bad guys per-se, they're just individuals out there with their own motives and ideas. For example, I loved the scene where Mal shot the horse out from in front of Patience.... not that I'm a fan of killing horses, but there was no mental anguish or asking Jayne to be the sharpshooter again.. but just what Mal had to do in order to survive. People depended on Mal daily and it was his duty to them that helped him make the tough decisions easier.

Likewise the bad guys weren't "bad" for the sake of being evil (why destroy the Earth anyway? that's what you keep all your stuff!!), but because they had motivation and that's what served their interests. No big black moustache(tm Simon) here, just what they do to live day-to-day. I don't part with money I don't have to either. ;)

UTHER55

Monday, December 15, 2003 10:36 PM

I do think you have a point, though. If there was less thinking/character developement and more cleavage and sex... likely the show would still be on the air. That's the unfortunate truth.

There was a time when the axiom in entertainment was, "Always leave them wanting more". But once shows starting giving people what they thought they wanted, they slowly realised they couldn't keep topping themselves.

The exceptions: Firefly, Crusade, the new Battlestart Galactica Mini Series... and all of them have uncertain (or no) futures.

Capatin Edgar Dickens
Firefly Class Transport: Monarch

Crew & Passengers Welcome
http://www.geocities.com/llbirdnow1/monarchhome.html

BUGBOY

Monday, December 15, 2003 11:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Uther55:
...the new Battlestart Galactica Mini Series...

I was under the impression the new Battlestar Galactica was another blatant boobfest, with the Cylons transformed into Amazons and the male hotshot pilots now being female hotshot pilots. I cancelled my cable about 6 months ago due to degraded signal, so I didn't see the mini-series.

"If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak!" - Jayne

UTHER55

Monday, December 15, 2003 11:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bugboy:
Quote:
Originally posted by Uther55:
...the new Battlestart Galactica Mini Series...
I was under the impression the new Battlestar Galactica was another blatant boobfest, with the Cylons transformed into Amazons and the male hotshot pilots now being female hotshot pilots. I cancelled my cable about 6 months ago due to degraded signal, so I didn't see the mini-series.

You obviously heard that from a diehard fan of the original series. LOL There is an AMAZING amount of animosity there. Apparently the old fans were trying to get a continuation rather than a re-make, and had been for some time. Then SciFi said "Thanks but no thanks", and they felt snubbed.

It was great. Of the human looking models of cylons that we are aware of (4 of the 12 models), only the one is sexy. And honestly, the female Starbuck was far from slutty - she was quite butch (but attractive). Honestly, it was great. It didn't rely on tech and aliens and gadgets, but instead used outdated tech and characters. Seriously, make the effort to catch it and I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Capatin Edgar Dickens
Firefly Class Transport: Monarch

Crew & Passengers Welcome
http://www.geocities.com/llbirdnow1/monarchhome.html

DRAKON

Tuesday, December 16, 2003 10:22 AM

Quote:
Any comments?

Strongly disagree. But it does bring moral questions up. Your question regarding Book's comment ignores the context.

Dobson shot Kaylee. Yes he was paniked and in over his head. And Book protected him from Jayne. As repayment for that, Book got beaten up, and Dobson then held a gun on River, whose crime was escaping torturers. Torturors who were cutting into her brain and whom Dobsom wanted to return her to.

Sometimes life is black and white. There is no middle ground between existence and non-existence. Joss says something to this effect in the commentary to "Objects in Space", things don't exist only partly. They either exist, or they don't

You either live or you are dead. There really is no middle ground here either. And you either deal with those who would kill you, or else allow them to succeed, thus ending your existence. While the Good Book may say "Thou shalt not kill", sometimes such rules only succeed in getting the moral person dead, at the hands of the wicked.

We see the moral dimension again, when Mal risks death and torture at Niska's hands to return stolen medicine. As Mal himself said, he didn't have a choice. It was a black and white issue, and he weren't bad enough to even comtemplate keeping the medicine those folks needed.

Life and death is black and white. It's either one or the other. It may be fashionable to talk about shades of grey and nuances and stuff, but in the end, you are either alive, or you are not.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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