IMMIGRATION
POSTED BY: impression
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 2, 2006 20:49
VIEWED: 17082
PAGE 8 of 8
Heya, SoupCatcher,
Glad to hear from you here! "Why now?" absolutely is the question. And of course, this is about "mobilizing the base." Or was. This was s'posed to be the latest brilliant marketing scheme for the Republican Party. It's a 2-fer: "strengthening the borders" sounds real good in this post 9-11 era, and pissing on the Mexicans--particularly the undeserving, illegal (how dare they???) Mexicans--well, nobody cares about those people!
'Cept the Mexicans apparently! 
And boy howdy there's a lot o' them ain't there? I had no idea! 
Yesterday's demonstrations were just that: demonstrations. Immigrants demonstrated that they exist and have power, just by being here. They have rights, just by being here. "Inalienable," I think they're called.
These are the invisible people the Republicans figgered couldn't speak english and so would not speak up. But they were wrong. And instead of having a slam-dunk non-event like "The Defence of Marriage Act" they're getting nothing but headaches over this. The future ethnic majority of the U.S.A. will never forget how the Republicans threatened to make their parents felons over night.
Folks, it's deeply hypocritical to exploit these immigrants' illegal status, offering them deplorably low wages under tacet threat of deportation and worse. As has been said, the process of legal immigration is arduous and expensive--these people wouldn't have a chance. Just because being illegal in this country is better than being a natural born citizen of their native countries; just because conditions in their native countries are far worse than anything they'll get from us, doesn't give us the right to sink to just above their level.
(Man, where have I heard this argument before? Oh, I remember, "Well, at least we're better than the Terrorists!")
Cheap foreign labor has been the name of the game in these parts since the days of slavery. And now we decide to put 'em all in jail? Who are we kidding? Do you think for a second that if this kind of law was passed, we would enforce it in any but the most perfunctory way? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the new War On: The War on Illegality.
To extend SoupCatcher's analogy, what if speeding were suddenly raised to the level of a felony? Mandatory jail time for speeders, licences suspended indefinitely... "Well, it is illegal to speed, so what's the problem?" The problem is that it's an abuse of governmental power. A perversion of why we the people suffer our government to exist in the first place.
Did ya all see V for Vendetta? "People shouldn't be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people."
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Soupcatcher,
Might I inquire on just one point in your opinion? The number being bandied about for illegal immigrants in the US is 12 million, give or take. I think you can grant me that I'm not posting information to back that up, and I'll grant that it's just the number I keep hearing in the press. It can very easily be wrong, and I don't know any better.
You don't like the illustration about those 12 million people breaking the law, because you think in your opinion it's a fair law to break. What do you say about the people that take the time and effort to enter the US properly? It's a difficult, expensive, and very long process that those people endure. We're talking thousands of dollars (which in almost any case I've ever seen has been an extreme financial burden) and a year or longer that they can't even *visit* the US (once they've been accepted to processing, which could be several years on top of that), lest their application be rejected and the process be started over again from scratch.
Are these people just stupid fools for making every effort to adhere to the laws and regulations established by the US? Perhaps everyone that wants to "be American" should just jump a flight to a location near a US border and enter illegally, since that's the more effective way to do things?
Amiton.
Amiton,
What I would say to people who become Americans through the system is, "Congratulations. I'm glad that you had that option available. I'm proud to call you a fellow American." Like I said before, I tend to have a lot of respect for people who are Americans by design.
The key point here is that they had that option available to them. I'm not going to second guess the decisions of anyone who doesn't have that option but still wants to come to this country and work hard. If they want to risk their life on a crap shoot for the "pursuit of happiness" than I'm not going to tell them they shouldn't. Becoming an American is non-trivial no matter how you go about it (I think it's a mistake to assume that it's "easier" to be an undocumented immigrant). One complaint I hear often is, "But. But. But. They're cheating." How is leaving behind everything you've ever known to struggle at below subsistence wages for years in the hopes that your children's lives will be better than yours cheating?
It's the responsibility of the government to enforce an immigration policy. I'm not saying we shouldn't have one. What I am saying is that we do a piss poor job of enforcing the inequitable one we have. I think immigration reform needs to have a two prong approach: first make the policy more equitable and philosophically consistent with the guiding principles from our country's inception taking into account that we, as a country, need to be responsible for our actions elsewhere in this hemisphere and across the globe (eta: for example, taking into account that the US and Mexico have a unique history/relationship); second, do a good job of enforcing that more equitable policy.
If you look at this country's immigration policy throughout our history, however, it says more about our prejudices and who we think is acceptable as an American than anything else. The quota system. The haphazard way in which we allow some groups a streamlined citizenship because of who our enemies are at that particular point in time. The importation of laborers and then the writing of legislation to prohibit them from citizenship (probably the most aggregious example of this are the laws written to stop immigration from China during the nineteenth century). We value the labor of these undocumented workers. But we're not supposed to value the individual? That's crap.
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Hey, HKCavalier! Yeah, long time no post on my part.
Liked what you had to say .
edited to add: It's not like undocumented immigration hasn't been a viable topic for discussion before now. It's almost like someone woke up and said, "Well, we know how to win elections. But we can't govern worth shit. People are finally starting to wake up to that fact. What can we do to keep them distracted long enough to win another election? LOOK! ILLEGALS!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
To extend SoupCatcher's analogy, what if speeding were suddenly raised to the level of a felony? Mandatory jail time for speeders, licences suspended indefinitely... "Well, it is illegal to speed, so what's the problem?" The problem is that it's an abuse of governmental power. A perversion of why we the people suffer our government to exist in the first place.
Did ya all see V for Vendetta? "People shouldn't be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people."
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
This is what the real problem is about. whether or not the citizens of the U.S. should allow our current structure of power to remain in place. Throughout history any major change in a political structure has been a result of the populace standing up and saying that we don't agree & we aren't going take it anymore. The biggest problem we face is that our government uses specific & strategic tactics to prevent organization of groups that might not totally agree with what our government does. Our real focus needs to be on changing our system through another revolution. Whether it be peaceful or not it needs to happen.
I will say one thing on immigration. If you are immigrating to a new country "ANY COUNTRY" legally or illegally you need to accept the personal responsibility of intigrating into the social structure of that country regardles of your cultural differences. MY QUOTE "One cannot expect to hide in the open if they don't blend in".
Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER
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Calling on all blue blazer regulars, browncoats, & open revolutionaries to stand up & take action
Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER
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The irony of the illegal immigrant is the Mexican people and government treat immigrants far worse than any Mexican immigrants are treated in the US. These are people coming across Mexico's southern border from Central and South America. Yet the Mexican government practically encourages their poor to cross their northern border into the USA.
I am not against _legal_ immigration, but I am against the illegal type. Using history as an rule is a poor example in the immigration issue. We have the law of this country now, not the laws of years ago. 100 years ago and before, the US had practically an unlimited immigration policy, the laws have changed since then.
My ancestors worked hard to make what this country is today, why can't the people immigrating stay in their countries and do the same? Sure it may be difficult, but they have to overcome their current cultures to improve themselves and their homes.
I am for a guest worker program and a legal immigration policy which allows a path to citizenship and assimilation into the US culture.
The USA is cursed with a good educational program for our children. As people get better educated, they are less willing to do the dirty or menial tasks. So we do need the immigrant labor to perform these roles.
We do have people born in the US who don't take advantage of the opportunities here but instead are drains on our resources. There are jobs out there but they are adverse to working at all, let alone, hard.
Amnesty is not the answer, this sends the message of if you can stay here long enough, you get a free pass. This is an insult to those who immigrated legally and to most citzens born here. We need to open up to ways for these people from not only Mexico but other countries to work in the US, but in a legal, regulated form of immigration and guest worker programs.
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Quote:
Folks, it's deeply hypocritical to exploit these immigrants' illegal status, offering them deplorably low wages under tacet threat of deportation and worse. As has been said, the process of legal immigration is arduous and expensive--these people wouldn't have a chance. Just because being illegal in this country is better than being a natural born citizen of their native countries; just because conditions in their native countries are far worse than anything they'll get from us, doesn't give us the right to sink to just above their level.
(Man, where have I heard this argument before? Oh, I remember, "Well, at least we're better than the Terrorists!")
Cheap foreign labor has been the name of the game in these parts since the days of slavery. And now we decide to put 'em all in jail? Who are we kidding? Do you think for a second that if this kind of law was passed, we would enforce it in any but the most perfunctory way? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the new War On: The War on Illegality.
To extend SoupCatcher's analogy, what if speeding were suddenly raised to the level of a felony? Mandatory jail time for speeders, licences suspended indefinitely... "Well, it is illegal to speed, so what's the problem?" The problem is that it's an abuse of governmental power. A perversion of why we the people suffer our government to exist in the first place.
I agree and I disagree, HKCavalier. Yes, it is *way* wrong to exploit illegal immigrants and their status in the corporate US. That is tantamount to slavery to me, too.
I very deeply feel that some serious action needs to be taken against employers that hire illegal aliens, even whether they knew that the worker was illegal or not. The onus is on the employer to be responsible for their employees. Sadly, knowing the political climate and effect of big business in the US, it's not going to happen. I think we all know that.
*Hopefully* we agree that something has to happen to prevent the massive influx of illegal immigration. Since that action *won't* be taken against the companies, as sad as that may be and as more appropriate that it may be, the action has to be taken to discourage the act itself.
I am pretty sure that felony imprisonment not only isn't the answer, but is an unworkable solution. The US doesn't have the funding to properly take care of the prison system as it stands now. Throwing every captured illegal immigrant in the clink is only going to exacerbate an already bad situation.
I would, however, liken the metaphor more to misdemeanor petty theft in Beverly Hills than to speeding. This isn't a victimless crime causing a slightly higher risk of endangerment. It is an act that does affect entire regions, although it is one that is easy to be sympathetic to since *right now* the effect is mostly under the radar. Make no mistake, though, this isn't going in a good direction for the United States as a whole. People are violently angry about this issue on both sides.
Would felony deportation be as ignitable a stance to you as felony imprisonment? I understand that people have gotten comfortable in the US with their status, and in many cases are otherwise law-abiding and contibuting members of their society. Many even have children that have lived in the US their entire lives and are now teenagers that have never known anything else.
For them, I am sorry. The situation is unfortunate, but it is a situation entirely built upon the decision to move to the US under false and illegal conditions. If they're caught now, why should they be exempt from the process that is already in place? Just because they avoided the law for ten or more years and kept their noses clean? Perhaps maybe just because they crossed the border and tried to work the system by having an anchor baby, but just didn't get put into the situation that confronted that for a decade?
If the process that is already in place, requiring an illegal immigrant to be deported even after ten or fifteen years, even with a baby that was born i
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Quote:Heya, Amiton. Thanks for your thoughts. I don't have the time to give you the reply you deserve, but I just hadda make this one point real clear: illegally migrating to the U.S. IS NOT a "great, low risk way to get ahead!" Illegals are at the mercy of law enforcement's very intentional negligence. Which puts them on a legal par with prostitutes. Have you heard of the term "second class citizen?" It is, as has been noted, just a notch above outright slavery. Great and low risk? Yeah, maybe for Walmart!
Originally posted by Amiton:
What should be done to actively discourage the idea that illegally migrating to the US is a great, low risk way to get ahead?
Amiton.
Hey, and did you know that a lot of these illegal aliens are college educated professionals in their own countries, but unable to legally practice in our country, these doctors and professors are forced to wash dishes so their families can eat? Only the most sociopathic are illegally coming up here thinking, "Whoohoo! I'm on the gravy train now!"
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
I don't have the time to give you the reply you deserve, but I just hadda make this one point real clear: illegally migrating to the U.S. IS NOT a "great, low risk way to get ahead!" Illegals are at the mercy of law enforcement's very intentional negligence. Which puts them on a legal par with prostitutes. Have you heard of the term "second class citizen?" It is, as has been noted, just a notch above outright slavery. Great and low risk? Yeah, maybe for Walmart!
Hey, and did you know that a lot of these illegal aliens are college educated professionals in their own countries, but unable to legally practice in our country, these doctors and professors are forced to wash dishes so their families can eat? Only the most sociopathic are illegally coming up here thinking, "Whoohoo! I'm on the gravy train now!"
Fair enough, HKCavalier. Perhaps I gave a poor representation of my opinion of the *individuals* that have entered the US illegally as opposed to the single representation of the category as a whole. I have a tendency to preach from that soapbox without adequately giving representation to the individual when I get on this topic. You have my apologies.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. Unlawful entry into the US is no small feat, and certainly worthy of recognition. I can respect their courage to leave their established status quo and undertake a task that is so very dangerous. It's certainly not as easy for these individuals to successfully do what they've done as it is made to seem in general. That's true even when you factor in the pamphlet printing, the maps to holes in fences, and the placing of water and food at common crossing points on the border.
And while I may not agree that *most* of these immigrants have completed their higher education, it would be irresponsible of me to claim that there aren't significant numbers of individuals that have left their education and the relative safety of their jobs behind for a chance at a better future for themselves and their family. They most definitely do exist, in large quantities, and in many cases their international education credentials and qualifications are ignored inside US borders.
In almost all cases, I whole-heartedly agree that many immigrants, even legal citizens, are treated as second class, as lessers, or even as petty criminals simply by association and met with bigotry and animosity, even in this day and age.
I do think that at then end of things, you are going to fall on the side of giving credit to them for enduring these hardships and wanting it to count toward giving them citizenship (I presume, and I don't mean to say that in a negative way), while I will fall somewhere else, personally.
To me, all of these things are indicators of a much larger problem, and by allowing the process to continue we're enabling the exploitation. We are *not* going to stop big business from capitalizing on people that are vulnerable. We are not, and cannot in an effective manner, make the government beat the snot out of big business until they feel that the risk of doing so outweighs the reward. The government doesn't have that kind of resource. The only real solution I can see is to take away the benefit of being here; take the motivation away at the source.
There's not a whole lot of ways for the government to even pull that off, and all of them I can imagine involve the US Government being a real big jerk. I don't like it, but we're in this situation. Did we do it to ourselves? Yes. Absolutely. Now that we've come here, though, here we are.
I've also seen people asking "Why now?" in this thread. Well, I think we all know (including the people asking the question) "why now." That doesn't detract at all from the point that this has been a problem for a very long time, nor does it take away the fact that we are exactly where we are and something really needs to be done.
Amiton.
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