Universe may be shaped like a soccer ball
POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Friday, December 12, 2003 11:49
VIEWED: 6134
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the more i think about it, the more the big bang theory just doesn't wash. if energy is equal to mass x speed of light^2, doesn't that imply an equivalent amount of energy will "act" the same as mass (gravity formation)? was space "stronger" at the instant of the big bang to prevent black hole formation? obviously our understanding of physics breaks down at extremes. i just can't figure how/where all this energy came into being or how it all originated into being. how could so much energy come together into such concentration even for a short time. due to the expansion of matter in the universe, the big bang was an extremely violent reaction of unstable, highly excited energy/particles(?). doesn't big bang theory imply external intent? i just can't believe universe formation was "natural occurance". also, in reference to folding space might create "rip" in space, are you saying that a rip would lead to extra-space region not in our own space? why would space rip? if it does rip, does this imply that universe's expansion is finite, due to space reaching a maximum expansion limit and extra-space forces pushing our space back?
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Originally posted by humble:
problem i've always had with the big bang theory is if the universe was compressed into a very small area of space at one time, why, at some much earlier point, didn't a black hole form.
But the black hole is not the end. Remember Hawking radiation, which oddly enough increases in intensity as the black hole shrinks.
Start off with a large black hole. It starts emitting Hawking radiation. As it emits, it loses mass. As it loses mass, the intensity of radiation goes up, gets brighter. Causing it to loose more mass, more quickly. Until, it finally goes all out and explodes, kinda like a small bang.
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this being so, what is matter "sinking" into?
This is a very common misconception in General Relativity. It is due to attempts to explain the intrinsic curvature to folks who have no prior experience with the concept.
The surface of a ball is 2 dimensional. Yet the ball itself exists in a 3 dimensional world or "manifold" of 3 flat spatial dimensions. The ball's surface has "intrinsic curvature", one, who is restricted solely to the surface of the sphere can measure the curvature of that ball, and tell himself that he does live on a curved surface.
But, intrinsic curvature tells you nothing about an extrinsic manifold or higher dimensional structure that such an object may, or may not, exist in. You can see that a ball is a 3 dimensional curved object, because you exist in a 3 dimensional manifold, you are not restricted to the 2 dimensional surface manifold.
In explaining curved space-time, the "rubber sheet" analogies are often used. Stars sink into deep dents in sheets of rubber. But a sheet of rubber is 2 dimensional, not 3 (or 4) and so unless one recognizes that the rubber sheet analogies are just that, analogies, teaching aids, one can easily confuse it with an acurate representation of the model it is describing.
A black hole does not "sink", matter that disappears behind the horizon is essentially cut off from the rest of the universe. And if it is a rotating black hole, it has two event horizons, whereby matter sliding between them and back out, ends up elsewhere and possibly elsewhen. The equations don't tell us jack about where it ends up. In this universe, in another, at a different time or place, nothing.
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if matter does distort space, and matter is energy, then would a large amount of energy in a small space create the equivalent of a gravity well distortion? if so, could this "bend" in space caused by the energy source be used to be used to connect to another source-created "bend" to create a "shortened" area of space (or shortcut) between one point and another destination? (sort of like how they folded space on dune) realize source would have to be quite large, but would this be within the realm of possibility?
I think you are talking about "white holes", kind of the flip side of black holes, and not really up on the latest research in that area. So far we don't see anything that looks like such a critter. It may very well be that space can only be bent one way, but nobody knows for sure. Besides there is already Hawking mechanism for the release of energy from a black hole. So not sure that it is necessary.
Would recommend Matt Visser's work except it is highly technical and you gotta be a math nut.
"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"
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Quote:
Originally posted by humble:
the more i think about it, the more the big bang theory just doesn't wash. if energy is equal to mass x speed of light^2, doesn't that imply an equivalent amount of energy will "act" the same as mass (gravity formation)?
Yes, and so far experiment backs this up. As a matter of fact, black holes depend on this very facet in order to exist in the first place.
One form of energy is pressure. Stars are sized based on a balance of forces, gravity trying to shrink it, and heat pressure due to fusion trying to push it out, make it bigger. Where these two forces balance, that is where you get your star's diameter.
But for really massive objects, the pressure ain't enough to balance. Not only that, but the additional pressure created further curves the space time, making the situation worse. So you get a runaway situation where by gravity creates pressure, which creates more gravity, which creates more pressure and so on, till it falls out or form a black hole.
Essentially a black hole forms because nothing can stop the gravitational collapse. Anything that might do so, such as heat, or pressure, only adds to the gravitational collapse of the object.
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was space "stronger" at the instant of the big bang to prevent black hole formation?
I will give you the standard science answer, the best answer we have to date, which I am not sure I buy either.
"Space and time were formed at the big bang" essentially the manifold was created by the big bang, along with the matter and energy. Not sure I buy it either, but if you consider that space and time really have no meaning without objects, particles and the like existing in them, well...
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i just can't figure how/where all this energy came into being or how it all originated into being.
It would not take that much energy to create an entire universe. Some calculations I have seen seem to indicate you could do it with as little as 7 pounds of matter.
As to how it occured, yes, our present models of reality break down under those extreme conditions. Right now, quantum fluxuations are blamed for the creation.
You ask a lot of good questions. The problem with the big bang, is that the model breaks down just before before the initial singularity. And if space and time did not exist prior to the big bang, then "before" really does not make a lot of sense. What happened before time existed?
Which can lead one on a very philosophical quest to define terms. What is energy? What is mass, time, space? How do we know? How are these concepts interelated? All good question, and there are many different opinions and theories to all this. But to a large extent, this borders on what scientists call "metaphysics". To them, it is pointless, as it creates theories and models which have no utility nor produce different conclusions compared to other theories. Without differences in conclusions, no experiment can be run to determine which of two theories are correct.
"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"
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yeah, i agree somewhat with much of what you're saying. but i think a lot of "popular" ideas are popular because of who's popularizing them. further discussion on big bang theory WOULD lead to philosophical debate rather than scientific. but stuff like this is just facinating to me! hope to continue studies on this at u of i later. thanks to drakon, paradigmshift,succatash, everyone, for discussion/answers as well as insights. (i think we're looking at the universe from the ant's perspective, and our understanding will grow with further exploration)
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