Dear Fake-Patriots,
POSTED BY: STDOUBT
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 11, 2025 02:40
VIEWED: 17112
PAGE 5 of 13
Quote:Except Slick, er Geezer, who is smart and knows better. But he uses his intelligence to try and convince himself - and everyone else- to go back to sleep. So Slick- I mean Geezer, apparently really could be a fascist.
99.9% of the uber-patriots aren't evil, cowardly fools. They are just ignorant of the real goings-on out in the world.
In a soothing drone: There is nothing to the definition of fascism. The test is flawed. The writer is unknown. Other nations do the same. It's happened before. Trust the system. It's not that bad.... Sleep.... go back to sleep... sleep...
Did I get all of it in for you, Geezer?
Oh yeah, except for ad hominem argument of dismissing everyone else as being in the "Bush is evil" crowd. Geezer- what happens if Bush really IS evil? I guess that thought is not to be actually discussed. GOOD GOD! ANYTHING BUT THAT!
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Free as in freedom, not beer.
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For Slick, who tried to discredit the article on fascism w/o even bothering to look up the topic:
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Fascism is associated by many scholars with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism, a powerful, dictatorial leader who portrays the nation, state or collective as superior to the individuals or groups composing it.
Stanley Payne's Fascism: Comparison and Definition (1980) uses a lengthy itemized list of characteristics to identify fascism, including the creation of an authoritarian state; a regulated, state-integrated economic sector; fascist symbolism; anti-liberalism; anti-communism [3]. A similar strategy was employed by semiotician Umberto Eco in his popular essay Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt[4]. More recently, an emphasis has been placed upon the aspect of populist fascist rhetoric that argues for a "re-birth" of a conflated nation and ethnic people[5].
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
It's a really extensive entry and contains many of the points listed above. If you don't like THIS definition as well, go the the Encyclopedia Britannica. When you have backgrounded yourself in the definition of fascism, then we can discuss whether the USA is heading in that direction.
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Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:Geezer was not using any ad hominem, only suggesting that Mr. Britt (NOT “everyone else” as you claim) may be a member, and he may be right. The “Bush is evil” crowd does exist on this board and you are a self-proclaimed card-caring member. There's noting ad hominem about Geezer's point.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh yeah, except for ad hominem argument of dismissing everyone else as being in the "Bush is evil" crowd. Geezer- what happens if Bush really IS evil? I guess that thought is not to be actually discussed. GOOD GOD! ANYTHING BUT THAT!
There is, however, something ad hominem about calling individuals names, whether you're using the word "ass" or "slick." If your intent is to ridicule, it is ad hominem.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by STDOUBT:
I think the generals should have told Bush to go fuck himself unless he could get Congress to sign off on his warmongering. Allowing the executive branch to ride roughshod over the Constitution is in my view, a sure sign of impending doom. I'm no expert in military law but I support any soldier who 'deserts' from this illegal war.
So you want the military to be making up its own mind on which orders it will or will not obey. You also want them to ignore their duly elected Commander-in-Chief and make their own interrpretation of the Constitution.
I suppose then you'd support the idea that the Generals could simply ignore the President and the Congress, set their own budget, make their own laws and use their military power to enforce those laws because, after all, by their reading of the Constitution, they are acting legally. Sure, you'd probably disagree with the laws and policy they make, but your argument supports their right to act as they please.
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I'm a nurse for hell's sake. I just get worked up seeing my beloved
country going straight down the shitter while people wave the flag and cheer.
Might want to stick to the nursing and leave the politicing to the professionals.
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I don't know if the guy in it is qualified to say the things he says, I haven't checked his credentials, I haven't made sure he holds a degree.... but I like his words.
A ringing endorsement, one he shares with used car salesmen, snake oil peddlers, strippers who claim people rape them, and the Democratic National Committee.
You see, thats your real argument with Bush. Its not policy or political ideology...if he used the right words you'd be right behind him. Sure, its shallow, but it saves time on the whole critical thinking thing.
H
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Quote:
A ringing endorsement, one he shares with used car salesmen, snake oil peddlers, strippers who claim people rape them, and the Democratic National Committee.
And the Republican party and G W B for some.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Except Slick, er Geezer, who is smart and knows better. But he uses his intelligence to try and convince himself - and everyone else- to go back to sleep. So Slick- I mean Geezer, apparently really could be a fascist.
In a soothing drone: There is nothing to the definition of fascism. The test is flawed. The writer is unknown. Other nations do the same. It's happened before. Trust the system. It's not that bad.... Sleep.... go back to sleep... sleep...
Did I get all of it in for you, Geezer?
Oh yeah, except for ad hominem argument of dismissing everyone else as being in the "Bush is evil" crowd...
Ahh. all the golden oldies. Hyperbole, innuendo, putting words in other people's mouths, and that classic accusation of ad hominem argument. It just never gets old. The lack of courtesy about the "slick" nickname I could do without.
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Geezer- what happens if Bush really IS evil? I guess that thought is not to be actually discussed. GOOD GOD! ANYTHING BUT THAT!
What happens if Bush is really evil? The same thing as if the Duke Lacrosse team or Timothy McVeigh is accused of being really evil. You develop enough evidence to convince a grand jury to indite, and have a trial. There's also plenty of folks in Congress who aren't beholding to the Republicans and could put forth a bill of impeachment. There's been a lot of retoric about this, but no action. Maybe not enough hard evidence.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Citizen, I realise your post was (probably) in jest, but it raised some arguments that other people like to bring so I'm going to briefly respond to it as if it weren't meant as I think it was.
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Originally posted by citizen:
In a democracy the government is working for (at least the majority) of people.
In theory, yes. In practice, impossible.
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Therefore if people voted for and continue too support the actions of their government they share responcibillity for those actions. A democrating government can't do something if the people don't let it.
This is simply not true, at least in most countries. For instance, the war with Iraq was quite unpopular in America and hugely unpopular in Britain, and it still happened. There isn't really a way to control an executive once it gets voted into power, unless they screw-up big time (and even then that doesn't really matter if they have the legislative (congress/parliament/whatever) on their side). Without some other government body to keep control over the executive, the only other influence is the media, and most people on this forum realise that the media has its own agenda and can hardly be seen as representative of what the people want. So basically, a government can do almost anything and have a good chance of getting away with it. The people are only important in election years.
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Unless your saying the American government is not a democracy, there's certainly arguments down that road.
In my view, the government that comes closest to being a true democracy is Switzerland, which is a direct democracy, meaning that the people vote on every damn thing. But even this requires the populace to be politically aware of what they are voting for/against, and that isn't always the case. California also has a direct democracy, but there it seems like any proposal that Schwarzenegger supports is accepted or rejected according to how popular he is at that moment. So direct democracy isn't exactly an ideal form of government either.
True democracy is possible only in theory or in a small population that is politically aware, but in almost all cases its implementation sucks. Unfortunately, every other form of government that's been tried is even worse.
Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.
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Finn- the "Bush is evil crowd" comment doesn't address the question whether Bush is evil, and doesn't respond to the original topic. Geezer uses various tactics (It's not that bad, other countries do it, it's happened before, the author is unknown, etc etc.) to evade and derail substantive discussion. And YOU are evading the discussion by making Geezer its focus. (And BTW- I'm sure Geezer is smart enough to speak for himself.)
You're right- I shouldn't be calling him "Slick" although "Slick" is actually a friendly, joshing recognition of someone's glibness.
So- Do you think that the USA is heading towards fascism, aided and abetted by people who claim to be patriots but who show fascist behaviors?
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Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:ie. "Trust the system. I'm not putting words in your mouth, just condensing your rhetoric. But in your world view, is there a role for the average person to get involved- even worked up- over politics? Or does the demos not belong in democracy?
What happens if Bush is really evil? The same thing as if the Duke Lacrosse team or Timothy McVeigh is accused of being really evil. You develop enough evidence to convince a grand jury to indite, and have a trial. There's also plenty of folks in Congress who aren't beholding to the Republicans and could put forth a bill of impeachment.
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Free as in freedom, not beer.
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This was directed at Finn, but there are some things that are bothering me.
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Originally posted by SignyM:
And YOU are evading the discussion by making Geezer its focus.
Geezer was made the focus when rue told him he should look up what a scapegoat is. That's when this discussion for some reason became Geezer vs lots of others. As far as I can tell, all that Geezer did was ask some critical questions of the original rant, as well as the test that it quotes. But apparently critical thinking of something that has already been accepted by most people on the forum simply because it's anti-Bush and against Bush-supporters turns one into somebody that needs to be attacked.
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(And BTW- I'm sure Geezer is smart enough to speak for himself.)
A couple of people are arguing against Geezer at the moment, but once somebody says something on Geezer's behalf it's "stay away, he can handle himself". Fine, in that case, I'm sure STDoubt is smart enough to argue against Geezer's points himself and doesn't need your help either.
Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.
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