The Hectic World of Tim Minear

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UPDATED: Saturday, July 27, 2002 23:34
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MOJOECA

Friday, July 26, 2002 8:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:

Second, you're basically saying, "We evolved that way, therefore this is the only way intelligence can evolve." The universe is a big place, and infinitely inventive. We can't even assume life on other planets would resemble us in terms of basic chemistry, never mind behavior.

Exactly! Just look at how different we are from other beings on this planet. Plants, bugs, dinosaurs, mold.

Sci-fi is unimaginative indeed.

--- Joe

ZICSOFT

Friday, July 26, 2002 10:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by InarasNewToy:

The idea that we are the only intellegent life in the Universe is pure arrogance. The idea that our pathetic little blue globe in a small dusty little corner of the galaxy is the ONLY place in the whole FREAKING UNIVERSE that can suport life? Absurd!

What a waste of space that would be!

INT

Luckily, we not paying for all that space we're not using!!!!!

MOJOECA

Friday, July 26, 2002 10:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shuggie:

Back to Fermi's Paradox again - surely the flipside, the thing that makes it a paradox rather than a conjecture or a hypothesis is the fact that there is life on Earth. What makes us special?

I do not feel comfortable concluding from the Fermi Paradox that we are alone. Our evolution from the "primordial ooze" over millions of years is difficult to fathom, so many argue divine intervention. I don't know. I see in nature all the steps that needed to be taken.

Did Earth win the lottery? Yes, if you think of all the things that could have happened to stifle our creation. But the vastness of space trumps probability. With so many galaxies, so many stars, if there is one, there must be two.

What I do feel comfortable concluding from FP is that instellar travel must be impossible -- Wormholes and FTL are pipe dreams. So no colonization, no CE3Ks. Long-range communication is still possible, but the many caveats make FP more true.

--- Joe

MOJOECA

Friday, July 26, 2002 11:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Well, if there are only a few intelligent species, I could buy that. But not if there are thousands. I find it hard to believe that so many beings could evolve intelligence, but not the itch to explore. Indeed, you can make a case that curiousity is a part of intelligence.

Begging the question, are we being visited but just don't know it? I'm reminded of the KIDS IN THE HALL sketch where alien abductors question their job.

ALIEN SHEMP 1: "We travel millions of light years, abduct a human, probe him anally, then erase his memory and send him on his way. And all we've learned is that 1 in 10 don't really seem to mind."
ALIEN SHEMP 2: "Your point being?"
AS1: "Well, couldn't we at least abduct someone important, instead of just any idiot in a pick-up truck?"
AS2: "The supreme ruler has his reasons."
AS1: "Well, I think our supreme ruler is just some twisted ass freak."
AS2: "What you need is a hobby. It helps break the monotony."
AS1: "Oh, yeah? What's yours?"
AS2: "I'm a pretty good amateur rectal photographer. Would you care to see my portfolio?"
AS1: "No, I would hate to."
AS2: "Fine, then screw you."
AS1: "Well, Screw you."

Damn that show was funny.

--- Joe

CHARLIEBLUE

Saturday, July 27, 2002 2:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Well first of all, too much has been made of the role of aggression in human evolution. You can make a case for cooperation, play, and other kinds of warm fuzzy activities as having a role. Try reading some of Richard Leakey's books on the subject.

Well, I wasn't talking just about humans. I was talking about life in general. Probably the only thing that separated the first living molecule from a normal one is that the living one tried to replicate itself. That's the most fundamental part of life--the desire to take over. If a creature doesn't have this desire, it's going to lose its place in the world to a creature that does follow this impulse.

I haven't read anything by this Leakey guy, but from what you describe of him, I think I'd agree. Those things did contribute a lot to human evolution specifically--what made us the creatures we are today. But I was talking about evolution in general--what keeps creatures from dying out.

ZICSOFT

Saturday, July 27, 2002 3:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:

What I do feel comfortable concluding from FP is that instellar travel must be impossible -- Wormholes and FTL are pipe dreams.

That doesn't follow at all. Even if you accept the speed of light as an absolute barrier, interstellar travel isn't impossible -- just time consuming. If there are thousands of intelligent species in our galaxy, I find it very hard to believe that none of them has gotten around to constructing interstellar craft. Yes, the resource, energy and time requirements are enormous, but if we're assuming there are bunch of species out there, then by implication a lot of them have been around for billions of years, and thus have had plenty of time to solve these problems -- and to have saturated the galaxy with their colonies.

ZICSOFT

Saturday, July 27, 2002 3:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieBlue:
That's the most fundamental part of life--the desire to take over.

Speak for yourself!

MOJOECA

Saturday, July 27, 2002 5:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
That doesn't follow at all. Even if you accept the speed of light as an absolute barrier, interstellar travel isn't impossible -- just time consuming.

I meant to say that. Without the fantasized shortcuts, interstellar travel is prohibively slow, discouraging widespread colonization.

Quote:
If there are thousands of intelligent species in our galaxy, I find it very hard to believe that none of them has gotten around to constructing interstellar craft. Yes, the resource, energy and time requirements are enormous ...

Study of geologic history and human history shows how much the world can transform in such a short amount of time. I don't know that an intelligent species can thrive long enough for such massive projects to be undertaken.

Quote:
... but if we're assuming there are bunch of species out there, then by implication a lot of them have been around for billions of years, and thus have had plenty of time to solve these problems -- and to have saturated the galaxy with their colonies.

Billions? I don't know ... there are geological and evolutionary process that precede emergence of an intelligent species. Perhaps millions, then. Though I guess that doesn't make much difference in your argument.

--- Joe

NOVAGRASS

Saturday, July 27, 2002 7:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieBlue:
That's the most fundamental part of life--the desire to take over.
Speak for yourself!

I'm sure you were just being wry and sardonic, but I'll argue for the previous poster.

When boiled down, evolution is at its base strictly related to the spreading of genetic material and maintaining the survival of the genetic line. It can be argued (and frequently is) that every emotion and physical feature has evolved only to aid in the process of producing offspring. This idea is fundamental in most theories of Darwinian evolution. It is therefore not unbelieveable that a civilized and intelligent alien species would evolved similar emotions and attributes to maintain their genetic line. If life on earth has evolved these traits which have thus far effectively assisted in continuing numerous species, it is likely that alien lifeforms would evolve similar traits.

Many people misunderstand this concept and mold it to fit the idea that all life wants to "take over." "Taking over" is irrelevant. What is relevant is survival of the species, and survival of the species directly relates to spreading of the genetic material and developing certain adaptations to better suit the environment. Whether or not said survival is conducive to "taking over" does not matter in this argument.

As for another intelligent/civilized lifeform having inhabited Earth prior to current carbon-based life... I'll believe it when I see proof.

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

The Ultimate Buffy-Angel Quote Generator™

SHUGGIE

Saturday, July 27, 2002 1:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Quote:

Back to Fermi's Paradox again - surely the flipside, the thing that makes it a paradox rather than a conjecture or a hypothesis is the fact that there is life on Earth. What makes us special?
What makes any lottery winner special? Blind luck.

Yeah but the lottery is a system set up deliberately to have a very unlikely outcome. The question is - what is it about the universe that makes life such an incredibly unlikely outcome?

Shug

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