No Child Left Behind Act

POSTED BY: Sassalicious
UPDATED: Friday, April 21, 2006 02:54
VIEWED: 6361
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RUE

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:55 AM

When it comes to threads, I seem to be some kind of homicidal maniac.

Please stop me before I kill again!

Oh yeah. And lights still turn off when I come near.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 2:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sassalicious:
So . . .thoughts from anyone? The answer seems obvious to me, but it's also probably too easy/too hard depending on who you talk to.

I don’t see anything egregiously wrong with NCLB. It seems like a step in the right direction to me. I think the problem that many educators have with NCLB may have more to do with the accountability that is being forced upon them then any real issue. NCLB is not an unfunded mandate. According to a CBO report and a GAO review, NCLB is neither unfunded nor a mandate. It is voluntary and it is very funded. In fact, a 40% increase in education funding came with NCLB, but it ties education funding, at least in part, to results, which means that educators must now produce some kind of result if they are to get full funding. And not to put too fine a point on it, but this sounds like something that will piss people off, if they are used to getting money with no particular requirement attacked to it. I think that is absolutely what the public education system in the US has been lacking, and I feel more comfortable about putting my tax dollars into education knowing that there is some kind of accountability to how it is being used, and it is not just being sucked up by a huge education bureaucracy with no particular benefit to education. If there are problems with the system, and I have no doubt that there are, then this needs to be addressed, but NCLB is, in general, a much needed improvement, and the only way I would have supported another increase in education funding.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SEVENPERCENT

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I think the problem that many educators have with NCLB may have more to do with the accountability that is being forced upon them then any real issue.

You also have no clue as to what you're talking about. Explain to me, a teacher, how it's about accountability. Actually, don't. I'll give you the same choice NCLB gives us, and you can take your pick. You can hold teachers 'accountable' for teaching things they aren't trained to do (math teachers teaching reading skills and lit teachers teaching how to deconstruct historical documents), or, you can retrain all the teachers to teach only to the tests, thereby dumbing down an already ignorant generation. Take your pick. Frankly, both choices suck, but hey, it's all about accountability.

Quote:
NCLB is not an unfunded mandate. According to a CBO report and a GAO review, NCLB is neither unfunded nor a mandate. It is voluntary and it is very funded. In fact, a 40% increase in education funding came with NCLB,

If an object costs 50 dollars, and I put down 20 bucks on the counter, I don't get to walk out with it calling it my own property. Sorry, even with the increase in ed spending, NCLB was underfunded according to what it would cost by 50% or more. Just because money is spent doesn't mean anything; it must be spent as it is budgeted.

Quote:
but it ties education funding, at least in part, to results, which means that educators must now produce some kind of result if they are to get full funding. And not to put too fine a point on it, but this sounds like something that will piss people off, if they are used to getting money with no particular requirement attacked to it.

Educators, contrary to your bashing, try to get the best results they can every day out of their kids. What this does is make them teach to the tests and get desperate, due to unreachable goals. They want 100% (by 2013, I think it's 55% this year, maybe higher) of the students reaching testable standards with all the weight of failure falling on the school and the educator. 100% is unreachable, period - even the best kids taking these tests sometimes get bored and start pencilling in bubbles at random, or ignore the math portion. Kids get the flu and come take the tests anyway, leaving halfway through. Some kids just don't give a shit due to bad parenting. Maybe, maybe, 70% is reachable, but above that is a pipe dream. Then, because of that, you threaten a school's funding and a teacher's job. Bravo, Finn.

Quote:
I think that is absolutely what the public education system in the US has been lacking, and I feel more comfortable about putting my tax dollars into education knowing that there is some kind of accountability to how it is being used, and it is not just being sucked up by a huge education bureaucracy with no particular benefit to education.

Then you need to take this up with your local school boards and your government, none of which seem to ever have been teachers. I find it amazing that people who have never taught a single class tell the people who do how to run a school. I find it just as amusing that people who never taught talk about how accountable the teachers are.

I spend hours upon hours in meetings every month with people trying to figure out how to make the school system operate better. NCLB made it worse, since now the admin is paranoid that we're going to lose funding (and I'm in a great school district).

Just two weeks ago I actually gave my kids an assignment, and I used these exact words, thanks to NCLB:
"Do this assignment like this, because it will be like that on the standardized test. When you get to college, they'll teach you the right way to do it, I hope."
Yeah. NCLB's working out real well for the dumbing down of Americans.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
I spend hours upon hours in meetings every month with people trying to figure out how to make the school system operate better. NCLB made it worse, since now the admin is paranoid that we're going to lose funding (and I'm in a great school district).

Welcome to the real world. I spend much of my time fretting over funding or fretting over what people above me are fretting over funding. I supposed I could throw a fit because people aren’t just giving me money for my job independent of results, or I could work hard to make sure that my projects stays on top and produces good results so that people will be inclined to keep me funded. I tend towards the latter, which may be why my project was rated highest of all projects in its category at the last review panel, and as a result the Army promised us no more funding cuts. See how that works?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SEVENPERCENT

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 4:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Welcome to the real world.

Yes, because as an educator, I have no idea what the real world is like. Spare me.

Quote:
I spend much of my time fretting over funding or fretting over what people above me are fretting over funding. I supposed I could throw a fit because people aren’t just giving me money for my job independent of results, or I could work hard to make sure that my projects stays on top and produces good results so that people will be inclined to keep me funded.

No one's throwing a fit because we're not getting money we didn't earn. It's not like teachers are asking for the money for themselves, independent of results, you ass. New textbooks? $24,000 dollars. You heard right, 24 thousand dollars. Teachers aide? 20 thousand a year. New faculty so that the classroom size doesn't get beyond 30? Whatever the going rate is.

Quote:
I tend towards the latter, which may be why my project was rated highest of all projects in its category at the last review panel, and as a result the Army promised us no more funding cuts. See how that works?

If they don't hire a new teacher this year, my class sizes are going up to 30+ kids next year. I can't give 30 kids enough specialized instruction to insure they all pass the tests with that many kids in a classroom. If they don't hire a teacher, they will fail to reach the NCLB goals because kids will fall through the cracks. But the locals won't increase taxes to hire another teacher, and in fact, they may have to let an aide go to make any semblance of budget (which hurts even more). The teachers in my department all were rated highly on their reviews, which has no bearing on why the kids won't pass the tests.

See how that works in the real world?

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

SASSALICIOUS

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 4:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
I spend hours upon hours in meetings every month with people trying to figure out how to make the school system operate better. NCLB made it worse, since now the admin is paranoid that we're going to lose funding (and I'm in a great school district).
Welcome to the real world. I spend much of my time fretting over funding or fretting over what people above me are fretting over funding. I supposed I could throw a fit because people aren’t just giving me money for my job independent of results, or I could work hard to make sure that my projects stays on top and produces good results so that people will be inclined to keep me funded. I tend towards the latter, which may be why my project was rated highest of all projects in its category at the last review panel, and as a result the Army promised us no more funding cuts. See how that works?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

It's not completely the fault of the educator. Sure, some don't try that hard, but most do. A large percentage of the problem is kids that don't want to learn and kids that have parents that don't care. NCLB doesn't address either of these issues. Additionally, many high schools now require a test at the end to determine if one is fit to graduate. This is equally lame because everyone just gets taught the material for the test, without actually *learning* anything.

Furthermore, I think school as a whole is getting dumbed down. Probably to make it easier for people who want everything handed to them on a platter. I took the hardest classes I could and still managed to get through 4 years of high school with all As and 1 B. I can promise you I didn't work too incredibly hard for it either. Thankfully, college is mildly challenging.

I think money getting put into the educational system should go toward getting updated books for all students. A number of inner city/rural schools get used and outdated books from other districts, which is hardly conducive to learning.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 5:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
No one's throwing a fit because we're not getting money we didn't earn. It's not like teachers are asking for the money for themselves, independent of results, you ass.

Given your angry attitude and boorish language, I have little confidence in that. I don’t think that American taxpayers, of which I’m one, should fork over a sizeable chunk of their income to a public education system that has failed to produced, on average, well educated people without concern for how that money is being spent. And buying books and hiring new teachers is all well and good, but the truth is that none of that matters if our students aren’t learning, and it doesn’t seem like they are, in spite of the money that is being spent. Your response is to throw fit and call me an ass, which affirms my position. Is it really worth continuing this discussion with you?

Quote:
Originally posted by Sassalicious:
It's not completely the fault of the educator. Sure, some don't try that hard, but most do. A large percentage of the problem is kids that don't want to learn and kids that have parents that don't care.

And I don’t expect that every child can be taught or that educators aren’t doing their best. In fact, all of the teachers that I know are all excellent teachers, as far as I can tell. I’m not interested in punishing teachers for not being good educators and I’m not interested in righting off students for not being good learners, but I do think that a system that rewards educators for being good educators and good students for being good students is precisely what we need. Quality education will probably be a natural result, at least that’s my belief. I don’t know if NCLB fulfills that entirely, but it appears to be at least a step in the right direction.

As I said, I don’t doubt that there are problems with the system; things probably need to be ironed out or some states maybe need to opt out and take their own approach, but nonetheless, the old approach of throwing money at education didn’t seem to be producing internationally competitive students. NCLB might not work either, I don’t know, but I think it is worth a try. And based on what I’ve read, public education in the US does seem to be getting better. As for whether that is due to NCLB or if it’s necessarily true at all, I’m unsure. We probably need longer studies to say.

And while I do agree that updated and newer books are always better, I have a hard time believing that books in most disciples are likely to be that far out of date. At the High School level, information doesn’t change that fast. A High School math book, for instance that is 20 or even 30 years old, isn’t going to have appreciably different content then a newer book. It’s just hard to believe that the books are the bottleneck here.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RHYIANAN

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 6:43 AM

Finn, being a student, I can tell you no child left behind is horrible. The students that don't care are being catered to, because they are the ones that can't pass the tests. This means that the students that want to learn can't because the teachers have to try to force the students that don't want to learn to learn the material.

As it has been said before, this is just dumbing down the population more, when we're already too ignorant as it is.

My high school was literally falling down around us. Sinks were falling off the walls in the bathrooms, termites were eating away at the band and choir room floors, and in some places, the snow was actually coming inside. However, because the community didn't want to pay for a new building, we didn't have enough money to do both the new program and the repairs that would make the learning environment better. And you're saying that since not 100% of the students can pass a test in that situation, that the school district should get even less money???

Do you want this country to be full of idiots?

Oh yeah....it's too late.

CITIZEN

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 7:49 AM

I like it when things remind me that the British education system isn't that bad really.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

SEVENPERCENT

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Given your angry attitude and boorish language, I have little confidence in that.

Yes, because implying that the people in my profession are lazy and don't understand how the 'real world' works always makes me want to treat you with respect.

Quoting latin and pretending you know what you're talking about doesn't make you superior, just as degenerating into namecalling didn't win me any points.

Quote:
And buying books and hiring new teachers is all well and good, but the truth is that none of that matters if our students aren’t learning, and it doesn’t seem like they are, in spite of the money that is being spent.

Students aren't learning because we have no money, in spite of the massive amounts you seem to think we spend. I have 5 classes, 150 kids, and enough textbooks for 30 of them. Instead of being able to push through material quickly, they have to do all work in-class, which slows me down to a 1/3 of the pace I could work at if I had enough texts for all of them. Add to that the classroom problems of having 30 in a class and not 25, and you see the need for more teachers.

Admit it, you want to privatize the education system, as does the Bush administration, contrary to every warning that's been given to the contrary. It's a common statement made by neocons who have never taught and have no regard for the profession as a whole.

Quote:
Your response is to throw fit and call me an ass, which affirms my position. Is it really worth continuing this discussion with you?

Teacher or not, I call them like I see them. You've lost the argument, you're just mad now because I responded to name calling that you started. I don't mince words; you insulted me and my profession, I responded within the context of an argument that rebutted your point - as I did again this time.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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