9/11 Conspiracy Theories

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Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
1) If jet fuel burns at about 1800 degrees F, and steel melts at about 2700 degrees F, why did the Twin Towers collapse?


2) Why did 7 World Trade Center collapse as effficiently as the Twin Towers, as if by demolition, without even being hit by a jet?


3) If the black boxes of the jets didn't survive the explosion, why did the passport of one of the supposed terrorists survive?

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Steel doesn’t need to melt to loose structure integrity. In fact at 1000ºF steel looses almost 50% of its strength and at 1800ºF it loose 80-90%, which is more then enough loss of strength to collapse the towers and there was more then enough heat to cause that.

The “demolition myth” is absurd on its face. The towers did not collapse as efficiently as if by demolition, and in fact, surrounding buildings were so heavily damaged by falling debris from the main towers that they had to be condemned or in some collapsed on their own, as WTC7 did. NIST researchers confirmed that WTC7 was seriously damaged by falling debris, one report indicating that 25% of the depth of the building had been “scooped out.”

A lot of things survive explosions, particularly if they are small, lightweight and not tied down. Then they tend to just go flying instead of breaking apart. Path of least resistance and all.

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Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
4) Why are some of the supposed terrorists of the hijackings still alive and well?

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They didn’t make the flight.

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Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
5) Why hasn't Osama Bin Laden been cought?

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He’s doing what all crooks who attract too much attention do; he’s hiding. How do you say “on the lamb” in Arabic?

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Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
6) In the video presented to the public where Osama admits his part in the attack, why is he wearing a ring and a watch, which is against Islamic rule?

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What about bin Laden makes anyone think he is an avid following of Islamic law? Bin Laden is a follower of his own law.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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I don't have answers for you, but I have been directed to some interesting documentaries on the subject. I suspect that maybe the points you made were brought to you via a chain that started from the 'Loose Change 2nd Edition' documentary. It can be found here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+c
hange

It's well done, so I recommend taking the time to let the whole thing load (runs about 80 minutes).

As with anything, it should be taken with a grain of salt (i.e. an objective eye that realizes that all pieces of media have slant, in varying degrees, so that an intelligent assessment can be made).

I found this documentary to be superior to another like it called 'In Plane Site' which came out a couple years ago, I think.

After it's been watched, let us know what you think.

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Greenfaerie -

You ask some legitimate questions, and there have been some excellent replies. I hope you take the time to study this more for yourself. Try to comprehend the physics of a fully loaded/fueled jet liner traveling at 500 mph has on a structure. Also, understand that the WTC buildings 1 and 2 weren't built like most other sky scrapers. Much of the weight was supported from the outside. While initially this wasn't such an issue, the resulting fires and furnace effect caused the undoing of both buildings. You'll note that the 1st Tower hit was the 2nd one to fall. Why? Because the 2nd Tower was hit lower down, some 20 floors (?) below. Similar planes and impact, but the Tower hit lower down has that much more weight above the impact area. Once one Tower fell, it was only a matter of time before the other fell.


People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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5) Why hasn't Osama Bin Laden been cought?

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He hasn't been caught because he's hiding. As far as I know, it's rumored that he's hiding out in the mountains that border Afghanistan and Pakistan. In these mountains there is a group of people and part of this group's code is to help people who ask for it. If a person asks to be hidden, no matter the reason, the group will hide the person. To go back on one's word in this society is a bad bad thing, which is why Osama hasn't been given up, assuming these people are hiding him.

Bear in mind, what I just said was a big simplification drawn from my memory of a National Geographic article from earlier this year.

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Originally posted by Sassalicious:

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5) Why hasn't Osama Bin Laden been caught?

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He hasn't been caught because he's hiding...

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I don't buy any of the conspiracy theories about the attack, but this question deserves more attention. Especially in light of all the distractions that the Bush administration have indulged in. They've diverted resources and attention away from finding those responsible for the attacks and used American fear as an excuse for ancillary military adventures in the middle east. Their excuses for doing so have been shifting and lame. They need to be held accountable.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
1) If jet fuel burns at about 1800 degrees F, and steel melts at about 2700 degrees F, why did the Twin Towers collapse?

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I'm not an engineer, but I did watch the documentary on how this happened. From what IO understand the steel didn't melt, it was weakened by the heat (along with the damage or destruction of some of the load bearing supports) and then the weight of the upper floors just pancaked down causing the whole thing to just fall like a house of cards.

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2) Why did 7 World Trade Center collapse as effficiently as the Twin Towers, as if by demolition, without even being hit by a jet?

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My understanding was that this collapse was not as efficient. For one thing it took several hours longer after the damage was done.

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3) If the black boxes of the jets didn't survive the explosion, why did the passport of one of the supposed terrorists survive?

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If this is true, then its what we in the legal community call "just one of those things". After the plane blew up over Scotland, they found bits of this and pieces of that intact, but it really doesn't mean anything (except as a curiosity).

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4) Why are some of the supposed terrorists of the hijackings still alive and well?

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The only one I know of is the guy on trial in Washington. He is alive because he was arrested before 9/11 (but I doubt he's going to survive it any more then his fellows did).

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5) Why hasn't Osama Bin Laden been cought?

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Deep hole and he's a coward. Imagine, every time he sees the sun or breathes a breath of fresh air he knows that we are coming. Be it in minutes or hours, he can't relax because if he looks up into that bright beautiful sky for more then a moment or so, he's dead or captured. He can run, but he cannot run forever. And the truly great thing is if he does manage to stay alive...eventually he'll die and then he's really gonna pay.

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6) In the video presented to the public where Osama admits his part in the attack, why is he wearing a ring and a watch, which is against Islamic rule?

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Ah yes, my favorite passage in the Koran is the one where the Prophet sets his watch.

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So I can get back to my life of playing video games, ignoring the daily news, and eating McDonalds. Or not.

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I just got an XBox 360, so I'm with you...well, not the McDonalds, I'm eating healthy these days. That means a daily vitamin with my hamburgers, hotdogs, and pizza.

H

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Good answer to #1, Fletch. I saw that documentary, too, and you explained it better than I could've.

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Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
2) Why did 7 World Trade Center collapse as effficiently as the Twin Towers, as if by demolition, without even being hit by a jet?

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Yes, as Fletch said, the debris severely damaged the structural integrity of #7. I don't know if you'd been there beforehand, to be familiar with the area (I went there everytime I went into town), but #7 was directly across Vesey Street from the north tower.

You might ask, why then didn't the World Financial Centers directly across West Street from the north tower also collapse from damage incured by falling debris?

Well, I'm not an engineer, but I can say that Vesey Street is much narrower than West Street -- I think Vesey is 2 lanes, and West was at least 4 (possibly 6) with a median divider down by the WTC. Even so, the Winter Garden was nearly completely destroyed, and the west face of one of the World Financial Center buildings was damaged.

Across Liberty Street from the South tower was a parking lot, on the corner of Liberty & West (I used to park there after the first bombing, when the sublevel garage of the WTC was closed to the public). Next to the parking lot was a tall office building (I don't know the name of it), whose entire northern face was ripped completely off. When I was last there, it still hadn't been repaired, and was covered by a huge black canvas. (If anyone here lives near there, they can verify if this is still the case or not.)

Having often stood on the roof of the south tower, I can tell you -- you can't imagine how high those buildings were if you'd never been on them. Even though the observation deck had a fence and was back about 12 feet from the edge of the building, you could look east (across Church Street) and probably spit onto the 60-story roofs of the adjacent skyscrapers, even though they were easily several hundred yards away.

Don't forget -- the Marriott, #4, #5, & #6 were also destroyed by the falling debris. Although, the Marriott was (unfortunately) sandwiched right between the north and south towers, #6 was directly beneath the northern face of the north tower, and #4 directly beneath the western face of the south tower. #5 was diagonal to the two towers, over on the corner of Church & Vesey, and even that was crushed. (I saw it a few weeks after the towers fell, and it was cut in two like a loaf of bread.)

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Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
3) If the black boxes of the jets didn't survive the explosion, why did the passport of one of the supposed terrorists survive?

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A lot of debris from the plane probably went flying at the moment of impact. Don't forget, one of the engines from the plane which hit the south tower wound up on the street several blocks north of the impact.

P.S. Your -- uh -- interesting graphic looks familiar. I once posted something in another forum related to Star Wars Jedi Academy, and recall seeing it there. Was that you?

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I'll chime in.

Yeah, I saw some of loose change, and am not at all convinced by it that the planes couldn't have taken the towers down by themselves.

What happened to the Pentagon is a lot more fishy, if the information presented in the documentary is correct. Were there no eyewitnesses who saw a plane going into it? Or did the documentary just ignore them? And if no plane went into it, what happened to that particular liner and its passengers? So far, not convinced there was no plane.

I am ready to suscpect the government of its own involvement. That doesn't mean I think they had to go as far as to plan it. Just to look the other way when evidence was staring them in the face.


For starters, PNAC, Project for New American Century basically had a study about getting back into Iraq and turning it into a democracy, but the study suggested such a road would be long and hard, unless we had a catalyzing pearl harbor like event to get the American people behind the change.

Then there's corroboration that the very day that Bush and Cheney were declared the winners of the election, Cheney was calling up the former administration and demanding all information it had on Iraq.

Then there's the long history we have with Bin-Laden as an American Operative.

Then there's the absolutely absurd things the administration said, like "nobody could have guessed that they would have used planes..." etc. when documents like the ones that said "Bin Laden determined to attack U.S." specifically suggested that planes might be the very weapon of choice. There's the treating of the information as an "historic document."????

There are also statements from cia officials that Rumsfeld told them he didn't want to hear any more about Bin Laden.

There's Bush's botched job of actually getting Bin Laden in Tora Bora, as Kerry was saying during the campaign. Yeah, it did turn out that he was in Tora Bora when Bush outsourced our efforts to capture him...but then, as he said himself, "I don't think too much about him...he's been marginalized."

Then there's the ridiculous leap from Bin Laden to Iraq which we all know by now, or I hope we all know, was a secular nation that considered Al Quiada too dangerous to do business with. Remember also, we were lied to about the weapons of mass destruction, in order to get us in there.

then there's the political uses of the threat warnings that seemed to always affect things like Democratic National Conventions, or overlay inconvenient news about republicans.(this is the sense I was getting as they were happening...I could probably make a real case for it, but it would be a long effort..if you wish to ignore it as speculative, that's fair)

And how about that Bin Laden tape surfacing right before the 2004 election? Wow, what timing...you'd think the man was Campaigning for Bush. He may be a psycho, but he's not stupid. Who doesn't think this helped Bush get votes, and why would Bin Laden prefer Bush?

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