Top Five Untrue Conspiracy Theories

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, April 9, 2006 07:19
VIEWED: 3644
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FLETCH2

Thursday, March 30, 2006 2:45 AM

He's not *my* prick, I'm a foreign national, I can't vote for him even if I wanted to.

I have a question for you, because I'm curious to see how naive you are. Assume we could get into the wayback machine and party like it's 1999. Let's assume we just give up on sanctions and hand Saddam several billion in oil revenue. Do you really think he would go "great Allah I must help the Iraqi people!" and make his first priority clean water and cleaning up the depleted Uranium you seem so concerned by? Or do you think a few new tank divisions, a palace or two and maybe a chem weapons lab would be on that shopping list before them?

The fact is that there are a lot of things that were not covered by the embargo that he could have spent his money on and would have improved the life of the iraqi people, power infrastructure, food and medical supplies to name a few. Instead he bought dubious pornographic art, gold plated assault rifles and other weird stuff. He's shown where his priorities were by his actions, having more money to play with is unlikely to change them.

GINOBIFFARONI

Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:42 AM

One, I think Saddam should have been given the opportunity to not do this, if the embargo lifted and there was no reinvestment in infrastructure, water plants, transport, etc. If he did not, then

A) the resultant blood whould be on his hands and not the west ( an important factor when you consider the reaction in other Muslim countrys to how this played out ) perhaps 911 might not have happened

B) Most agree, even US intellegence that the embargo was not accomplishing it objectives, so the resultant loss of live was pretty much pointless from the point of decision on.

C) Mass arms purchases could still be blocked as unless the major arms producers tried to ship through Iran, the borders were under control.

D) The credibilty of the UN would have been maintained, instead of having one security council member driving the agenda against the will of the rest... I think the veto power must go

E) The international community would then be free to try other approachs, even threatning to put the embargo back in. If someone has something to lose you have more room in negotiation. Weapons inspection teams should have had more freedom to look, but also an end date, say five years then their teams would withdraw.

F) With no reinvestment in infrastructure, domestic pressures might have built up to the point of a coup or a civil war resulting in an internal regime change, which I would say would be better than one forced at the point of a foreign invasion.

I think any or all of these would have been better than what did, if Saddam had of as you say used the cash to build a palace or two, I think that would have provided an opening to use Islam to the advantage of the situation, overtures to Sunni and
Shi'a Imams across the Muslim world would have brought addition pressures to bear towards F), futher isolating Iraq, including the muslim world in the solution... and somehow along the way accomplishing a complete US troop withdraw from the region further decreasing tensions.

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

GINOBIFFARONI

Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:56 AM

BTW

Where are you from ?

How do you respond to my comparing Saddam ignoring his people to Bush ignoring his,

I really cannot believe they still haven't got their shit together down there yet,... the next hurricane season is coming up soon, maybe they are hoping the whole mess will be washed out to sea.....

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

FLETCH2

Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
One, I think Saddam should have been given the opportunity to not do this, if the embargo lifted and there was no reinvestment in infrastructure, water plants, transport, etc. If he did not, then

A) the resultant blood whould be on his hands and not the west ( an important factor when you consider the reaction in other Muslim countrys to how this played out ) perhaps 911 might not have happened

It's on his hands anyway. You speak as if it's some unilateral decision made just by the US to put the sanctions in place. It wasn't they were set up by the whole UN and there was a way in which Saddam could have had them lifted at any time, just comply with the UN resolutions. The fact that he didn't means one of two things. Either he did have WMD's or his ego was such that he'd rather starve his own people than admit that he didn't. In either case he doesn't sound like santa claus to me.

Quote:

B) Most agree, even US intellegence that the embargo was not accomplishing it objectives, so the resultant loss of live was pretty much pointless from the point of decision on.

I love this one. The same people that say "you shouldn't have gone to war, we had him contained, sanctions were working" then say "sanctions were a failure the west MURDERED all those people!" So which was it? Sanctions were either failing in which case we had to intervene before he rebuilt his military or they weren't.

Quote:

C) Mass arms purchases could still be blocked as unless the major arms producers tried to ship through Iran, the borders were under control.

How? I'm curious. Iraq was a large complex economy that under normal circumstances pulls in a lot of material legitimate or otherwise from a lot of places. With sanctions in place theoretically Saddam had to show his shopping list to the UN before they let him buy anything. It appears that he managed to sneak things through even with most things blocked. The US isn't able to adiquately screen all containers coming into US ports want to try that on the other side of the world. Could you tell just by looking at a set of gears if they fit a tractor or a T52?

Quote:

D) The credibilty of the UN would have been maintained, instead of having one security council member driving the agenda against the will of the rest... I think the veto power must go

The whole of the UN put sanctions in place. Had Saddam managed to get them lifted without bowing to the UN demands then it actually makes the UN look even weaker than it looks anyway. It says the international community can be bribed to look the other way as long as you have oil.

Quote:

F) With no reinvestment in infrastructure, domestic pressures might have built up to the point of a coup or a civil war resulting in an internal regime change, which I would say would be better than one forced at the point of a foreign invasion.

The Shia in the south rebelled after the Gulf war expecting the US to help them and they didn't. The people behind the uprising were brutally put down. It was so bad that even when the US was invading few Shia's showed any support because they didn't trust the US to stay. The time to have supported an uprising was in 1991 not 2003. The money that Saddam was skimming out of oil for food made sure that the Repubican guard, party loyalists and the internal security apparatus remained at optimum strength even as the rest were starving.

Would you stand up to Saddam and watch your daughter's raped and your sons disappear into Abu Graib? Seriously? The Arab street will riot if you publish the wrong cartoon but if you are a muslim hard man with a good secret police, they are not stupid enough to riot no matter what you do.

FLETCH2

Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
BTW

Where are you from ?

How do you respond to my comparing Saddam ignoring his people to Bush ignoring his,

I really cannot believe they still haven't got their shit together down there yet,... the next hurricane season is coming up soon, maybe they are hoping the whole mess will be washed out to sea.....

Bush will be gone in 2008. The idiots that ran FEMA have already gone, any politico that can be shown to have screwed up are likely to be gone this year. Even if Bush were a corrupt idiot he could be voted out, impeached or at the very worse the most that anyone would have to put up with would be 8 years.

Given the choice between that and a never ending dictator with two sadistic sons waiting in the wings I know which I'd prefer.

GINOBIFFARONI

Thursday, March 30, 2006 12:04 PM

It is not your perception that matters, the feeling in most Islamic countrys put the blame of the sanction deaths at the wests hands, and that has caused alot of problems...

Your next point, by 1998 at least, ALL the security council members except the US and Britain wanted to lift the sanctions, Albright publicly stated that the US would veto any such move.... and Saddam always claimed the WMD programs were shut down, and the UN weapons inspectors concurred... it was the US who didn't believe it ( without any proof )

Engine parts... so what You can't ship in Tanks, Artillery pieces Aircraft without the controls that were in place on those borders realizing it. A crate of rifles, sure but so what

Once again the majority was held hostage by the veto of the US, in a vote the sanctions were gone anyway

and the last, well I won't bother... history would disagree with you... there has been many coups and attempts that follow just such a pattern... usually against US backed tyrannts, trying to use that in this situation would have been preferable

Unless you think what is going on now is the better solution ?\

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

SIXSHOOTER

Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

3) "They Live" is really a documentary.

Mama don't like tattletales!

BOOM-WAH!

No, They Live isn't a documentary, but Hell comes to Frogtown is.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:38 PM

Ahh, you're just here to chew bubblegum...

Nada Chrisisall

FLETCH2

Thursday, March 30, 2006 7:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
It is not your perception that matters, the feeling in most Islamic countrys put the blame of the sanction deaths at the wests hands, and that has caused alot of problems...

If the "Arab Street" actually got off of its ass and overthrew one of these nutjobs then I would respect their opinion. As it is they use the West as an outlet for other frustrations. Know why so many of them riot over cartoons they have never even seen?

1) Because some Iman told them too
2) Because rioting against El Presedente would get them shot. There are frustrated little farties out there sure but they are smart enough to know you don't riot against the Man.

Quote:

Your next point, by 1998 at least, ALL the security council members except the US and Britain wanted to lift the sanctions, Albright publicly stated that the US would veto any such move....

Let's say that the first part is true. By 1998 we has had nearly 8 years of sanctions, Saddam has still allowed countless Iraqi's to starve for public relations reasons. He was undermining sanctions by playing the poor starving Iraqi card on international TV and by promising French and Russian oil companies contracts once sanctions were lifted. Let's say that he succeeded.

1) The "Arab Street" would still have blamed the West for 8 years of sanctions because we're the only folks they can blame for anything. So we would have been no better off.

2) Saddam would have reconstituted his military as a priority, so while life wouldnt have got immediately better for the Iraqi people their chance of overthrowing the nutjob just got worse.

3) The US could not have pulled troops from the region and left Kuwait and Saudi oilfields vulnerable. It is that protective force on Saudi soil that pissed of Bin Laden, not anything that happened to mainly Sh'ite muslims in Iraq.

Quote:

......and Saddam always claimed the WMD programs were shut down, and the UN weapons inspectors concurred... it was the US who didn't believe it ( without any proof )

No they didn't. They said they couldn't find anything they believed that there were still extensive stocks of chemical and biological agents. Read Hans Blix's 2003 report. Blix and his people were just as surprised as anyone else that the US never found anything. The sanctions were not going away because everyone but the US really thought he'd complied. Public opinion in the west had shifted because of reports of starving Iraqis and at least 2 security council members had economic deals with Iraq signed and just waiting sanctions being lifted.

Quote:

Engine parts... so what You can't ship in Tanks, Artillery pieces Aircraft without the controls that were in place on those borders realizing it. A crate of rifles, sure but so what

Well I would argue that you could ship in anything if you wanted it badly enough. In 2003 Iraq still had one of the world's biggest armies it's just that a lot of their hardware was out of action because of lack of spares. You don't need to smuggle in tanks, they had plenty, gear box parts and engine parts were what they were lacking. So no, those boxes of gears you just shrugged off would be important. Then there is the issue of dual use. The chlorine that you said we wouldn't let him import, the "water purification" stuff that we withheld just to kill Iraqi's. Guess what? It's the basis for all kinds of nasty chemical weapons. Would you know at the border if a tanker of chlorine was going to help the poor people of Basra get clean water or gas another Kurdish villiage? Guess not.

Quote:

and the last, well I won't bother... history would disagree with you... there has been many coups and attempts that follow just such a pattern... usually against US backed tyrannts, trying to use that in this situation would have been preferable

Like I said the US let the Shia in the south down in 1991. The people that stood up were picked off. That's the "lesson of history" we chose to teach them. Ea

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, March 31, 2006 1:43 AM

Oh yeah, better solution....

The US economy in ruins, the US Military ground down into a shadow of their former selves, complete loss of credibilty for Bush worldwide, Iran to soon own Iraq

Actually Yeah, Thanks for cheering me up... Now the US is that much less a threat to its neighbors

Win Win

Bush in 2008

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

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