Is Joss Whedon a one trick pony?
POSTED BY: AngusThermopyle
UPDATED: Sunday, March 26, 2006 18:03
VIEWED: 16194
PAGE 5 of 8
Quote:
Originally posted by charmuse:
>I disagree. You're helping to perpetuate the belief that women >are all victims. If you need fiction to help you believe that >they're not, you can't have very affirming people in your life.
This is silly. I love Joss for his writing and worlds he creates. You made this a personal beef almost immeadiately. Why?
>All stripes you say. What about all sizes? You ever see a fat or >unattractive heroine in a JW series? Nope! They're all skinny >and pretty. I realise that the networks probably wouldn't allow >anything else, but has he ever even written one? Let's face it, >the majority of US women are nothing like that. So, what's his >writing giving them, huh? It's helping them to see themselves >as unattractive and unwelcome. Isn't that misogyny of a sort?
Well if you consider the fact that all the men on the show are babes. No fat ugly slobs among them.....
>Women aren't powerless in real life, that's a crock. I don't know >about you, but I'm living in the 21st century. Women are as >screwed up as men. They are strong in some areas, weak in >others, and damaged in others. We all are.
Maybe so, but opinion on damage should be decided by knowing a person, not by age, sex, color or race. So call that a draw.
[bold]I wasn't scoring, I was just making a few points, a discussion. That's all.[/bold]
Quote:
>Men and women are different. Feminism wants to make them >the same. It can't be done. Feminism has done great harm to >women. I'm not talking about the vote etc. I'm talking about >making men and women totally confused about their roles. >And their roles are quite different. Why do you think their is >such a high divorce rate? It isn't because all men are inherently >bastards, because they aren't. I've had some awful girlfriends, >who were manipulative, envious and spiteful. I didn't hit them. >One in particular I could've destroyed with a few sentences, >because I knew all her insecurities etc. I chose not to push that >button. We split up and it took my girlfriend of 3 years to sort >out the damage that one woman had done.
Well, we all have had bad relationships, and as you strike me as young, you will have more. The question of manipulation is not gender based. It is how much you are willing to put up with for your own self worth..without hitting them of course. If you think women voting is still up for grabs, you truly are a caveman. If you think not hitting women (or anyone for that matter) is a big recent leap...I am sad.
[bold]
Actually, I was 39 in January. But people do take for being in my 20's which is totally cool by me.
I was merely using the female vote issue as an example of a part of feminism I wasn't talking about and was completely for. I wanted to talk about the feminist's attitude to the gender continuum. How they want to make us all the same.[/bold]
Quote:[bold]
>You see my point? I was the victim when I could've been the >opposite, but I chose not to be vengeful or cruel. That makes >me "mighty." It wasn't fiction or TV that helped me, it was a >real person, a relationship. And I helped her too. Because we >cared about each other and wanted each other to be whole.
I think the fact that you refer to yourself as "mighty" is insight enough for me.
The use of the word mighty was ironic. It was a quote from ep 1 of Firefly. I don't think I'm great because I decided not to hit back.[/bold]
Quote:
>I don't know if you're male or female, but your name sounds >female. If not, I apologise. Maybe you need to meet better >people. I don't know you, so I can't really comment on your >life, only give examples of mine.
So you would apologize if I was male? Would you also use spell check? I guess I am beneath that, being female and all.
I'm English. That's what the language is called. Apologise is spelled like that in English English. I was apologising if I got your sex wrong. I was being polite. Are you always so sensitive? Sorry you misunderstood. I couldn't care less what sex you are. I just didn
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Sorry, had some tag issues and it duplicated the post, so I edited it to this...
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but my point still stands, apart from that one episode of Angel that you cite, where in Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Toystory even, is Joss Wheadons insinutation that all men are misogynistic?
Sadly I can't watch the episode you stated right now, but I assume that it involved a character with these opinions, spouting off about them, maybe somehow inducing one of the regular cast to follow suit? possibly? I don't know, but...
Joss Writes fiction, it's a way of expressing your own views, but it is also the only way to take someone elses view, maybe that you agree with, maybe that you think is completely wrong, and use it to create an interesting story through 'characters'. What one character believes has nothing to do with Joss. He, like all writers, simply gathers up bits of this thing we call humanity and throws them all out for us to take with what we will.
Take Mal for example, you'd think, being the lead of a show he's wanted to do forever, Mal would be a reflection of himself, pretty much no.
So before I believe you, give me example of how his main characters and 'worlds' insinuate "that behind every male face is the beating heart of a primitive woman-hater."
Because they really don't.
And for the fat issue, why oh why is this brought up time and time again? There is a huge difference between using super skinny supermodel types with boob jobs and permatans, and using real normal people. Every single one of his cast members is a healthy, normal sized and shaped person, hell, Jewel apparently put on weight to play Kaylee. In Firefly they live on the edge of space, they are active, underindulgent people - no-one is going to be fat, so why wedge one in for pc's sakes?
The only time I ever get at people for the fat issue is when their characters are fat and seen as nothing more than that - Hurley from Lost for example -(you want elaboration go find the ranting thread in Talk Story.) and Joss would never ever do that. (basically cause he has more imagination and interest in characters over stereotypes)
That said, objectification. Hell, this is television, unlike real life we only partake of it because we want to, and the sad fact of the matter is that for all our supposed nobless and cultural conditioning, you, me, that guy loading the small cannon in the corner, are barely one step away from bonobo chimps rubbing our asses together in the jungle. We watch things mainly because we are attracted to them, you could have the most perfect plot known to the universe, but if your characters repulsed people, no one (in terms of viewing figures) would ever watch it. So in that way everyone who ever gets even so much as a toe on screen is 'objectified'
Not just women, and by only seeing the objectification of women and ignoring the objectification of men and even cute little puppies, you are actually being kind of sexist and insulting.
Your here telling us that Joss's work is all about female empowerment, it objectifies, it only deals with teenages girls, and so called superwomen.
If that were the case, then the only people identifying and posting here would be teenage girls and the old 40 year old male with a new developed skill for typing one handed.
Instead here we are,people from a broad spectrum of different sexes, races and ages and social, political and cultural backgrounds.
So really, what does that say about the diverse appeal of Joss's work? If he were only a one-trick horse, no-one would still care enough to condradict you.
**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
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Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
but my point still stands, that one episode of Angel that you cite, where in Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Toystory even is Joss Wheadons insinutation that all men are misogynistic?
Sadly I can't go right now and watch the episode you stated, but I assume that it involved a character with these opinions, spouting off about them, maybe somehow inducing one of the regular cast to follow suit? possibly? I don't know, but...
Joss Writes fiction, fiction is a way of expressing your own views, but it is also the only way to take someone elses view, maybe that you agree with, maybe that you think is completely wrong, and use it to create an interesting story through 'characters'. What one character believes has nothing to do with Joss. He, like all writers, simply gathers up bits of this thing we call humanity and throws them all out for us to take with what we will.
Take Mal for example, you'd think, being the lead of a show he's wanted to do forever, Mal would be a reflection of himself, pretty much no.
So before I believe you, give me example of how his main characters and 'worlds' insinuate "that behind every male face is the beating heart of a primitive woman-hater."
Because they really don't.
And for the fat issue, why oh why is this brought up time and time again? There is a huge difference between using super skinny supermodel types with boob jobs and perma tans, and using real normal people. Every single one of his cast members is a healthy, normal, sized and shaped person, hell, Jewel apparently put on weight to play Kaylee. They live on the edge of space, the are active, underindulgent people, no-one is going to be fat, so why wedge one in for pc's sakes?
The only time I ever get at people for the fat issue is when they are fat and seen as nothing more than that (you want elaboration go find the ranting thread in Talk Story.) and Joss would never ever do that. (basically cause he has more imagination and interest in characters over stereotypes)
That said, objectification. Hell, this is television, we only partake of it because we want to, and the sad fact of the matter is that for all our supposed nobless and cultural conditioning, you, me, that guy loading the small cannon in the corner, are barely one step away from bonobo chimps rubbing their asses together in the jungle. We watch things mainly because we are attracted to them, you could have the most perfect plot known to the universe, but if your characters repulsed people, no one (in terms of viewing figures) would ever watch it. So in that way everyone who ever gets even so much as a toe on screen is 'objectified'
Not just women, and by only seeing the objectification of women and ignoring the objectification of men and even cute little puppies, you are actually being rather sexist and insulting.
Your here telling us that Joss's work is all about female empowerment, it objectifies, it only deals with teenages girls, and so called superwomen.
If that were the case, then the only people posting here would be teenage girls and the old 40 year old male with a new developed skill for typing one handed.
Instead here we are,people from a broad spectrum of different sexes, races and ages and social, political and cultural backgrounds.
So really, what does that say about the diverse appeal of Joss's work? He, by no stretch of the imagination, is a one trick pony, (horse?) cause if he were, no-one would care enough to condradict you.
**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
It was the episode Biily. Billy was the guy who angel rescued from hell for Wolfram and Hart w
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That aint civilised rules. Too much politicaly correct thinking there. Joss did Buffy and then he did Angel. He doesnt care if its a man or a woman. Its what best fits the plot. Nowadays there is too much thought on 'am I able to do this? is it right to say that? should a woman or man be portrayed in this way?'. My attitude is as long as you are not offensive to another race or human being, say and do what you like and dont let the media and society brain wash you into 'being a better person'. You can be a better person by being yourself and believing in your own moral values.
I wouldnt say Badger is a baddie he's the same as Mal. Hes an opportunist who makes his living anyway he can. Coz im British I think he's cool :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by j6ngo1977:
That aint civilised rules. Too much politicaly correct thinking there. Joss did Buffy and then he did Angel. He doesnt care if its a man or a woman. Its what best fits the plot. Nowadays there is too much thought on 'am I able to do this? is it right to say that? should a woman or man be portrayed in this way?'. My attitude is as long as you are not offensive to another race or human being, say and do what you like and dont let the media and society brain wash you into 'being a better person'. You can be a better person by being yourself and believing in your own moral values.
I wouldnt say Badger is a baddie he's the same as Mal. Hes an opportunist who makes his living anyway he can. Coz im British I think he's cool :)
I'm British too mate.
Actually, both Buffy and Angel are politically correct. That was kind of my point.
And what you say about being able to write anything as long as it doesn't insult or offend being ok. We should all stop writing then?.
Those cartoons that got the Islamic world up in arms (almost literally), were first shown in an Egyptian newspaper months before they were in the Euro press. No one raised an eyebrow until they appeared in the west. So, you see. People do tend to decide when they are going to be offended too, not just by the subject matter.
Yes, in many ways Badger is very like Mal, but he's portrayed as bad and Mal honourable. They are both opportunists and let's face it Mal has probably killed more people to keep his lifestyle. He's portrayed as a bit of a Robin Hood character though. The Alliance being the Sheriff of Nottingham in a way. I guess Jayne would be Little John. Ok, enough of this. I'll end up saying that Inara is Maid Marian, if I'm not careful. Oh bugger!
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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'Kind of insulting' isn't extreme, I was referring to the way you seem to feel that women need someone to argue their case for them, to stand up and help them, which is actually kind of insulting, especially as it regards a show that all the women who have posted here agree doesn't really raise the need for this 'help'.
Yeah, you said 'is it' but isn't that just semantics? If you have an opinion, state it, be prepared to talk it over, thats what discussion boards are for, but (trying to remain impersonal) posing a question like 'is this guy you all are gathered here because you like and admire just basically a bit deficient?' then walking away saying 'bye bye, wasn't me honestly! You all just agrue to much, i'm going to leave you to it' isn't discussion, its almost blatent baiting.
And i'm not going to say that word, but it does come to mind.
Yes, ok, in that episode, misogynistic tendencies are inflated to a gross degree. But you're ignoring what I said about exploring alternative viewpoints in fiction.
Anywhere in the episode did it baldly state that deep down inside all men are woman hating pigs and they just need some guy called Billy to come along and show them? Who said that? How do we know that these were Joss's own opinions? We don't, it was possible he was simply exploring possibilities.
And quite frankly taking the subject of one episode in one season in one series, and applying it to everything he has ever produced is just a bit naff.
So, no, you're probably quite wrong.
'average''role-model' what do you mean by those words? Fat? geeky? old? normal? Or just simply not a 'pin-up'. Would you call any of the starlets in hollywood movies 'role models'?
All these terms are so debatable its not worth posting the list until we've tied down the definitions. But the characters that stick in my mind are the cootch dancers from Carnivale - full, viable characters regardless of their size and their professions.
My last (four) paragraphs didn't exclude the possiblity of crazed fans. I'm not talking about the end results, i'm talking about the initial attraction.
It takes a diverse range of factors to attract a diverse range of people, which is what this site has (proven - the what do you do in real life threads) and you can't be diverse and broad in your appeal if you are a 'one-trick' - its not possible.
So, to join in with the semantics - 'Is he...? No, he's not.
And I think that, seeing as you've already left the discussion, ends it (between you and I at least)
**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
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No I dont think people should be stopped from saying what they want but there has to be a line drawn. For example Hitler. He said and did what he wanted but it wasnt morally correct and again his thought process was brought about by social conditioning. 5 guys pilot an airplane into the two towers and because of social conditioning the rest of the western populace think Muslims are all bad. I agree with you on the cartoon thing.
The kind of people I find offensive are rude inconsiderate people. Sociapaths. Which tends to be the general public :) Which you are not Augus because you are bringing forward your opinion with a very good explanation. Previous forums Ive been on , mention no names but Urban75, if you make a comment, for example 'I like cheese' you will then immediately get a torrent of abuse saying how crap cheese is with no explanation .LOL
I'll go with the Robin Hood thing. Yeh Inara is Maid Marion :) Ive never really fancied Inara, Ive always been a Yo-Saf-Bridge kinda guy but at the end of Serenity when she has no make-up on and she smiles at Mal my heart melted :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
'Kind of insulting' isn't extreme, I was referring to the way you seem to feel that women need someone to argue their case for them, to stand up and help them, which is actually kind of insulting, especially as it regards a show that all the women who have posted here agree doesn't really raise the need for this 'help'.
Yeah, you said 'is it' but isn't that just semantics? If you have an opinion, state it, be prepared to talk it over, thats what discussion boards are for, but (trying to remain impersonal) posing a question like 'is this guy you all are gathered here because you like and admire just basically a bit deficient?' then walking away saying 'bye bye, wasn't me honestly! You all just agrue to much, i'm going to leave you to it' isn't discussion, its almost blatent baiting.
And i'm not going to say that word, but it does come to mind.
Yes, ok, in that episode, misogynistic tendencies are inflated to a gross degree. But you're ignoring what I said about exploring alternative viewpoints in fiction.
Anywhere in the episode did it baldly state that deep down inside all men are woman hating pigs and they just need some guy called Billy to come along and show them? Who said that? How do we know that these were Joss's own opinions? We don't, it was possible he was simply exploring possibilities.
And quite frankly taking the subject of one episode in one season in one series, and applying it to everything he has ever produced is just a bit naff.
So, no, you're probably quite wrong.
'average''role-model' what do you mean by those words? Fat? geeky? old? normal? Or just simply not a 'pin-up'. Would you call any of the starlets in hollywood movies 'role models'?
All these terms are so debatable its not worth posting the list until we've tied down the definitions. But the characters that stick in my mind are the cootch dancers from Carnivale - full, viable characters regardless of their size and their professions.
My last (four) paragraphs didn't exclude the possiblity of crazed fans. I'm not talking about the end results, i'm talking about the initial attraction.
It takes a diverse range of factors to attract a diverse range of people, which is what this site has (proven - the what do you do in real life threads) and you can't be diverse and broad in your appeal if you are a 'one-trick' - its not possible.
So, to join in with the semantics - 'Is he...? No, he's not.
And I think that, seeing as you've already left the discussion, ends it (between you and I at least)
**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
I'm a bit confused. On the one-hand you say Joss Whedon is good because he speaks up for women and then get insulted when you think I'm doing the same thing. I never said that women needed a champion. I said I didn't like it when I'm told by a popular TV show that all men are misogynists. I did say I've spoken up for women. But not all women. These people I know and care about who actually needed it. And don't presume to tell me they didn't. They did.
I didn't say anything about people arguing too much and that I was walking away. I said I wanted to speak my peace and was interested in what other people had to say, and thanked them. If you'd care to re-read the last part again... I don't run from a fight, never have. Not if I believe in something. I've always stood for my principles and in many instances I've had to pay for it. But that's what having beliefs and principles is. You don't run away when things get a bit difficult.
I spoke about one episode and the issue it raised. I never said that the whole
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Quote:
Originally posted by j6ngo1977:
No I dont think people should be stopped from saying what they want but there has to be a line drawn. For example Hitler. He said and did what he wanted but it wasnt morally correct and again his thought process was brought about by social conditioning. 5 guys pilot an airplane into the two towers and because of social conditioning the rest of the western populace think Muslims are all bad. I agree with you on the cartoon thing.
The kind of people I find offensive are rude inconsiderate people. Sociapaths. Which tends to be the general public :) Which you are not Augus because you are bringing forward your opinion with a very good explanation. Previous forums Ive been on , mention no names but Urban75, if you make a comment, for example 'I like cheese' you will then immediately get a torrent of abuse saying how crap cheese is with no explanation .LOL
I'll go with the Robin Hood thing. Yeh Inara is Maid Marion :) Ive never really fancied Inara, Ive always been a Yo-Saf-Bridge kinda guy but at the end of Serenity when she has no make-up on and she smiles at Mal my heart melted :)
Who's going to draw the line, J? You, me, some Immam in Iran? The US President? Blair? How can anyone have that kind of power and not be Hitler?
mate, I don't think many sociopaths come online to discuss Joss Whedon. They're donw the pub putting a pint glass in someone's face then shagging up and alleyway against a wall.
Oh I think Inara is totally gorgeous and possibly one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen. She could play any of the great beauties from history: Helen of Troy, Sheba (As in Solomon and...). And what a smile. She looked better in the series I thought.
Actually, did anyone notice how a lot of the crew looked kind of different? It wasn't just lighting either. Inara, Kaylee, Book and Mal.
Sorry, Yo-Saf-Bridge?
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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