Is Joss Whedon a one trick pony?
POSTED BY: AngusThermopyle
UPDATED: Sunday, March 26, 2006 18:03
VIEWED: 16194
PAGE 4 of 8
Quote:
But one thing I wanted to pick up on -misogynistic characters in his work, where?
I think you missed my point, there. I wasn't talking about there being misogynistic characters. I was talking about the insinuation that behind every male face is the beating heart of a primitive woman-hater. See Billy (Season 3, Angel).
Tim Minear's point was that every man covers up this with convention and rationality, but that it's in all of us (men). Well, no it actually isn't. There are certainly misogynistic men out there, the same as there are woman who like nothing better than to emasculate men.
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by charmuse:
Just me personally, but my feeling is Joss loves women. He empowers them, and he believes in love. It is as simple as that.
Do women really need fiction to be empowered? I love women too. I empower them by the way I interact with them. If they have low self-esteem, I help them to see their strengths. That's the way I'm wired. It's not some noble thing I go out of my way to do. It's just there.
My point was: Can he or will he do anything else?
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Of course they do. They have a such a rare bit of power in real life. I understand your issue but in my estimation, men are so conditioned, as the wide world is, to see women as victims. Not strong, not in control, not smart, not capable. And for the most part the are subjugated. Pretty or ugly, that is the decider and the only condsideration in most men's brainpan, nothing more.
Joss answers that. Is he redundant? No, I don't think he is. The common thread is strong women and from my way of thinkin', they come in all stripes to him. Mechanic, cheerleader, child prodidgy and the like. He enjoys seeing women being smart, capable and fighters if the need to be.
No different then the myriad of action male stars on record. Joss chooses to champion women as opposed to the same ole Arnie feya. Good for him, I say.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by charmuse:
Of course they do. They have a such a rare bit of power in real life. I understand your issue but in my estimation, men are so conditioned, as the wide world is, to see women as victims. Not strong, not in control, not smart, not capable. And for the most part the are subjugated. Pretty or ugly, that is the decider and the only condsideration in most men's brainpan, nothing more.
Joss answers that. Is he redundant? No, I don't think he is. The common thread is strong women and from my way of thinkin', they come in all stripes to him. Mechanic, cheerleader, child prodidgy and the like. He enjoys seeing women being smart, capable and fighters if the need to be.
No different then the myriad of action male stars on record. Joss chooses to champion women as opposed to the same ole Arnie feya. Good for him, I say.
I disagree. You're helping to perpetuate the belief that women are all victims. If you need fiction to help you believe that they're not, you can't have very affirming people in your life.
All stripes you say. What about all sizes? You ever see a fat or unattractive heroine in a JW series? Nope! They're all skinny and pretty. I realise that the networks probably wouldn't allow anything else, but has he ever even written one? Let's face it, the majority of US women are nothing like that. So, what's his writing giving them, huh? It's helping them to see themselves as unattractive and unwelcome. Isn't that misogyny of a sort?
Women aren't powerless in real life, that's a crock. I don't know about you, but I'm living in the 21st century. Women are as screwed up as men. They are strong in some areas, weak in others, and damaged in others. We all are.
Men and women are different. Feminism wants to make them the same. It can't be done. Feminism has done great harm to women. I'm not talking about the vote etc. I'm talking about making men and women totally confused about their roles. And their roles are quite different. Why do you think their is such a high divorce rate? It isn't because all men are inherently bastards, because they aren't. I've had some awful girlfriends, who were manipulative, envious and spiteful. I didn't hit them. One in particular I could've destroyed with a few sentences, because I knew all her insecurities etc. I chose not to push that button. We split up and it took my girlfriend of 3 years to sort out the damage that one woman had done.
You see my point? I was the victim when I could've been the opposite, but I chose not to be vengeful or cruel. That makes me "mighty." It wasn't fiction or TV that helped me, it was a real person, a relationship. And I helped her too. Because we cared about each other and wanted each other to be whole.
I don't know if you're male or female, but your name sounds female. If not, I apologise. Maybe you need to meet better people. I don't know you, so I can't really comment on your life, only give examples of mine.
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I think Joss would resent being called a pony. Obviously, he would rather be called a horse.
Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
The other thing that was disappointing and took away a lot of Firefly’s originality was the fact that space wasn’t silent anymore. I really like that about Firefly. I feel it gave it an edge and a loneliness.
GO BACK AND WATCH SERENITY AGAIN.
The silence is still there.
Near begining:
Serenity in space over planet.
No sound only music.
Serenity descends into atmo.
Atmo. Loud Noises.
Amto burns.
Serenity leaves planet. In atmo:
Mal and Zoe talking near Mal's cabin.
Serenity shaking, rattling, rumbling. See the
reflections of atmo burn on Mal's face.
Mal says "what do you think they'll do to us?"
Sounds stop. Shaking stops. Reflections of atmo burn are gone. Serenity has left atmo.
Slient in space.
Mal firing at Reaver ship in space.
No atmo burn.
No sound of explosions.
The sound is some sort of recoil noise inside Mal's suit. You can hear Mal grunt.
Big "space battle" is not in space.
See the ion cloud. See the Alliance ships. See outside the Alliance ship. See the lightning in the ion cloud. HEAR THE THUNDER. The ships are in Atmo.
There is no atmo burn. Hear the explosions. Hear everything. NO AMTO BURN. We are in atmo.
Quote:
With all JW’s talk about the future being about two superpowers: US and China (unlikely, I think); how come all the crew are American and Chinese people only seem to be in the background, selling from market stalls or walking by?
Serenity is not anywhere near Londinum.
Serenity is not anywhere near Sihnon.
Serenity soars between the Border planets.
Think America--old west. The Chinese were there too. But most of them were back in China or Sihnon.
The Border planets are the old west. The Border planets would just naturally attract Americans. If they weren't cowboys and cowgirls when they got to the Border planets...they soon will be.
Do you really think the Chinese are going to go to another solar system without taking their best customers with them?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Legolad:
Okay... silence in space: yeah, that was one of my favourite details about the show, and I was a little disappointed they cheated so much to make the movie 'louder.' I still say a silent space battle would be cool -- the contrast between the silent exterior shots and the sudden noise and chaos whenever you switched to inside a ship. Ah, well.
See my post above this one. The silence is there.
Otherwise you would see atmo burn as Serenity descends into the planet.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I think that in JW's work the skinny teenaged girl is meant to represent the underdog in all of us. No doubt there's a feminist component, but I'd say it's less in-your-face than it is matter-of-fact: this guy doesn't mind using skinny teenaged girls as a stand-in for all of us. I teach teenaged girls, and I do think too many people still dismiss them as unimportant, exploit them, talk down to them, objectify them. I think they're a good choice to embody those who are undervalued and underestimated. And the dream of all of us who feel somewhat undervalued and underestimated ourselves that someday, we'll really show people what we can do.
Btw, the name Angus Thermopyle--you know, I love Stephen Donaldson. But that character must be one of the most screwed up people--and not least about male-female relationships--in all of science fiction. Not insinuating anything (or not insinuating much, b/c I really don't buy into your stuff about male/female "roles"--mostly, though, I'm just curious), but how does someone espousing the views you do choose such a user name?
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
>I disagree. You're helping to perpetuate the belief that women >are all victims. If you need fiction to help you believe that >they're not, you can't have very affirming people in your life.
This is silly. I love Joss for his writing and worlds he creates. You made this a personal beef almost immeadiately. Why?
>All stripes you say. What about all sizes? You ever see a fat or >unattractive heroine in a JW series? Nope! They're all skinny >and pretty. I realise that the networks probably wouldn't allow >anything else, but has he ever even written one? Let's face it, >the majority of US women are nothing like that. So, what's his >writing giving them, huh? It's helping them to see themselves >as unattractive and unwelcome. Isn't that misogyny of a sort?
Well if you consider the fact that all the men on the show are babes. No fat ugly slobs among them.....
>Women aren't powerless in real life, that's a crock. I don't know >about you, but I'm living in the 21st century. Women are as >screwed up as men. They are strong in some areas, weak in >others, and damaged in others. We all are.
Maybe so, but opinion on damage should be decided by knowing a person, not by age, sex, color or race. So call that a draw.
>Men and women are different. Feminism wants to make them >the same. It can't be done. Feminism has done great harm to >women. I'm not talking about the vote etc. I'm talking about >making men and women totally confused about their roles. >And their roles are quite different. Why do you think their is >such a high divorce rate? It isn't because all men are inherently >bastards, because they aren't. I've had some awful girlfriends, >who were manipulative, envious and spiteful. I didn't hit them. >One in particular I could've destroyed with a few sentences, >because I knew all her insecurities etc. I chose not to push that >button. We split up and it took my girlfriend of 3 years to sort >out the damage that one woman had done.
Well, we all have had bad relationships, and as you strike me as young, you will have more. The question of manipulation is not gender based. It is how much you are willing to put up with for your own self worth..without hitting them of course. If you think women voting is still up for grabs, you truly are a caveman. If you think not hitting women (or anyone for that matter) is a big recent leap...I am sad.
>You see my point? I was the victim when I could've been the >opposite, but I chose not to be vengeful or cruel. That makes >me "mighty." It wasn't fiction or TV that helped me, it was a >real person, a relationship. And I helped her too. Because we >cared about each other and wanted each other to be whole.
I think the fact that you refer to yourself as "mighty" is insight enough for me.
>I don't know if you're male or female, but your name sounds >female. If not, I apologise. Maybe you need to meet better >people. I don't know you, so I can't really comment on your >life, only give examples of mine.
So you would apologize if I was male? Would you also use spell check? I guess I am beneath that, being female and all.
Yuck..yours truly..
HMB
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Serenity is not anywhere near Londinum.
Serenity is not anywhere near Sihnon.
Serenity soars between the Border planets.
Think America--old west. The Chinese were there too. But most of them were back in China or Sihnon.
The Border planets are the old west. The Border planets would just naturally attract Americans. If they weren't cowboys and cowgirls when they got to the Border planets...they soon will be.
Do you really think the Chinese are going to go to another solar system without taking their best customers with them?
Actually, it's funny you should bring that up as the Chinese in the "old west" were cheap labour for the railways. Now they're passer's by.
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by glitch:
I think that in JW's work the skinny teenaged girl is meant to represent the underdog in all of us. No doubt there's a feminist component, but I'd say it's less in-your-face than it is matter-of-fact: this guy doesn't mind using skinny teenaged girls as a stand-in for all of us. I teach teenaged girls, and I do think too many people still dismiss them as unimportant, exploit them, talk down to them, objectify them. I think they're a good choice to embody those who are undervalued and underestimated. And the dream of all of us who feel somewhat undervalued and underestimated ourselves that someday, we'll really show people what we can do.
Btw, the name Angus Thermopyle--you know, I love Stephen Donaldson. But that character must be one of the most screwed up people--and not least about male-female relationships--in all of science fiction. Not insinuating anything (or not insinuating much, b/c I really don't buy into your stuff about male/female "roles"--mostly, though, I'm just curious), but how does someone espousing the views you do choose such a user name?
Okay, firstly I don't bye your skinny teenage girls argument for a second. They are still objectified. They are what Hollywood wants. Bums on seats etc...
As to the handle. I love Stephen Donaldson, who is somewhat of a mentor to me. We have corresponded on a number of occasions. Superb writer. The reason I chose Thermopyle wasn't anything to do with his character. I wanted a sci-fi name that was not well known. Didn't want to be Muad'dib (also think Frank Herbert is a geneous); and I certainly didn't want to use a name from Firefly, Star Wars or Star Trek. I also think it's an interesting sounding name.
I certainly don't share his attitudes about relationships or women or probably anything else.
My views are real. I live them and I really don't mind if people don't share them or believe I that I really have them. I am me and I'm not trying to be anyone else. If I see something that makes me angry or uncomfortable, I say something.
That's all there is to it. No big mystery or anything.
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME