Re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Thursday, March 30, 2006 06:32
VIEWED: 6568
PAGE 5 of 6
Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
I suspect I started to look into this before you were even born. I've watched while theory X becomes "the theory" and watched again as it fell out of favour to theory Y. It's a lot like watching people piece together bits and pieces of TV show's like Firefly or B5. They get a couple of pieces of real information and construct a huge complex "explanation" that links all the pieces. Thye end up investing so much in it that when new information comes along later they are too wedded to the concept to abandon it. They would rather maul and mutilate the information they have to make it fit than abandon it. That's why PN's grand universal "theory" has so many actors. He built up a picture of "the man" who is keeping him down and if something else happens to him that the theory doesnt explain he adds another branch to the "conspiracy" rather than just face the notion that he could be a screw up.
It's called "Magical thinking" it has the same basis as believing in fairies, goblins or a pantheon of warring gods. Most people come to the conclusion that there are uncontrolled events, some people can't do that, it makes them impotent, vulnerable to whims of nature and of life. These people look for an underlying mechanism that explains why things happen to them. Since random chance terrifies them they actually prefer to be the victim of copricious supernatural forces rather than live with the fear of randomness or their own failings. Once upon a time if your crops failed you might conclude that you upset some minor god. these days it's jewish conspiracies with black helicopters or little grey aliens from space. The nature of the "enemy" has changed but it's basic nature never does, it is always all powerful and if you are paranoid enough all powerful and willing to waste it's time messing with YOU. Makes you important you see? God may be peeing on you but at least he pays you attention.
So just for once Jenny, stop being PN's poodle.
Good grief Charlie Brown
nobody is saying you have to take everything PN says at face value, but alot of the stuff he post have vality and merit to it. maybe your the one with the problem, maybe you aren't so called paranoid enough...nor do I need a philosphical rant from you!! and please before you try to talk as an expert on a subject, espeically since your not in the CIA...you might want to do a little more research before you dismiss it out of hand believe me or NOT..but mind control by the CIA is very, very real
LOL!! as for thinking for myself I'm sure thats what I'm doing, PN makes some valid points some of which I agree with and when posters like you come in to try and dis credit whats being said your damn skippy I'm going speak out!!
PJ
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Quote:
I'm so tired of people saying that Bush and Co are incompetent they are not INCOMPETENT!!
As there is a civil war in Iraq, and as several of the fundraising crowd have been indicted. I can't imagine they *intended* for this to happen. I think this is a very familiar story: Intellectuals with big ideas go and play in the real world and get in way over their heads.
Here's a prime example: Initially, the UAE invested in our Iraq operation. It's logical to assume, that since they are about as businesslike as the Ferengi, that there was an exchange, which I hubly suggest was control of the Iraqi ports. There must've been a catch in this deal whereby they could have ours if we failed, but Bush couldn't even deliver that. Now there's a chance our forces will get kicked out of Dubai, this is a mess.
Another example. They cannot have intended for the Abu Ghraib photos to leak. In fact, torture wasn't even in the original plan, it was suggested to them halfway through by other intellectuals like Alan Dershowitz. They made up a policy, enacted it, and everyone found out and blamed them. Well, this I feel certain did *not* go according to plan. I think it was a desperate move to get intelligence to help win the war, once they realized how much in over their heads they were.
Anotehr example, apparantly, we've been beating on Iran's door for 2 years saying "help us in Iraq!" and we wouldn't have to do that if everything went according to plan, the PNAC plan, and the plan of Richard Perle who told Dick Cheney that it would cost $60B because he actually believed that's what it would cost.
Another screw up: They actually *did* think there were WMDs to be found. I'm absolutely without a soubt certain of this. Here's my very simple logic: If they were making it up, they would've thought of something better. A doctrine of pre-emptive war based on the idea that Iraq has what are basically the same weapons as many of its neighbors is truly ludicrous. The ideal fictional story would have been that we were attacked not by Al Qaeda, but by the terrorists that Saddam Hussein had been funding and training to attempt to kick jews out of the West Bank and Gaza. There is of course, no evidence this is the case, and everyone is pretty sure that it isn't the case, but building this case would have been a hell of a lot stronger then the WMD argument. In fact, just about anything would have been stronger then the WMD argument. They went with it because they honestly believed it was true.
The fact is, these guys are not the brilliant Masterminds, they're not Dr. No, they're Pinky and the Brain meets Dortmunder.
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Amd Pirate Jenny, again:
Quote:
Corportations represent their own interest not mines or the welfare of the people.
You really miss the point.
Corporations ARE we the people.
We the people are assembled into corporations.
The corporations is us, we is the corporations.
We, the people, are the special interests.
Virtually everyone in this forum is in some way or other connected with a corporation. I wouldn't be astoundingly surprised if a few people here had been corporate exuctives. I was once, I'm not now, but a corporation still pays my bills daily.
In fact, corporations make the medicines that heal me when I'm sick, they make the books and websites on which I learn, they make this internet possible, the car I drive and the fuel to drive it with.
Government, as far as I can tell, with the exception of a few things such as the dept. of defense, and its offshoots the VA, the NSF and NASA, doesn't do jack.
Who else am I to owe allegiance to? Non-profit organizations? Religious institutions? Corporations make us what we are.
Now and then, one or two go awry, get overzealous, but honestly, even Halliburton or Enron, are really okay, and generally speaking, providers of good and services for the people.
The corporations, the Big Corporations, are still, as they have always been, the good guys.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Amd Pirate Jenny, again:Quote:
Corportations represent their own interest not mines or the welfare of the people.
You really miss the point.
Corporations ARE we the people.
We the people are assembled into corporations.
The corporations is us, we is the corporations.
We, the people, are the special interests.
Virtually everyone in this forum is in some way or other connected with a corporation. I wouldn't be astoundingly surprised if a few people here had been corporate exuctives. I was once, I'm not now, but a corporation still pays my bills daily.
In fact, corporations make the medicines that heal me when I'm sick, they make the books and websites on which I learn, they make this internet possible, the car I drive and the fuel to drive it with.
Government, as far as I can tell, with the exception of a few things such as the dept. of defense, and its offshoots the VA, the NSF and NASA, doesn't do jack.
Who else am I to owe allegiance to? Non-profit organizations? Religious institutions? Corporations make us what we are.
Now and then, one or two go awry, get overzealous, but honestly, even Halliburton or Enron, are really okay, and generally speaking, providers of good and services for the people.
The corporations, the Big Corporations, are still, as they have always been, the good guys.
NOOOOOOOO Dreamtrove, thats just it!! I didn't miss your point, actually I laughed at your point, because its just not so the whole statement is ridiculous..
we the people are not Corporations, Corporations have their own intrest to look after and protect, not ours we the people. When Corporations have a vested intrested in (we the people) and have a vested intrest in protecting us and looking after (we the peoples) best intrest.
While indivduals or a group of individuals might run a corporation, a corporation is its own enity. Corporations are suppose to be regulated by the government that represents WE THE PEOPLE, so that the medicine you buy is safe for you to take, or that food that you consume is safe for you to eat, but when the Corporations start telling the government what to do ,or the Corps start influencing the laws to benifit them at the expense of we the people and when Corporations move to other countries because they don't want to pay health insurance or higher wages, thus taking away jobs, and not paying taxes although they are profiting from the people in this country, thats when Corporations are no longer the good guys and thats what is happening now so again When Corporations have a vested intrested in we the people and have a vested intrest in protecting us and looking after we the peoples best intrest. I might agree with you but until that day comes I'll be ROTFLMAO at your statment
once again
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:Quote:
I'm so tired of people saying that Bush and Co are incompetent they are not INCOMPETENT!!
As there is a civil war in Iraq, and as several of the fundraising crowd have been indicted. I can't imagine they *intended* for this to happen. I think this is a very familiar story: Intellectuals with big ideas go and play in the real world and get in way over their heads.
Here's a prime example: Initially, the UAE invested in our Iraq operation. It's logical to assume, that since they are about as businesslike as the Ferengi, that there was an exchange, which I hubly suggest was control of the Iraqi ports. There must've been a catch in this deal whereby they could have ours if we failed, but Bush couldn't even deliver that. Now there's a chance our forces will get kicked out of Dubai, this is a mess.
Another example. They cannot have intended for the Abu Ghraib photos to leak. In fact, torture wasn't even in the original plan, it was suggested to them halfway through by other intellectuals like Alan Dershowitz. They made up a policy, enacted it, and everyone found out and blamed them. Well, this I feel certain did *not* go according to plan. I think it was a desperate move to get intelligence to help win the war, once they realized how much in over their heads they were.
Anotehr example, apparantly, we've been beating on Iran's door for 2 years saying "help us in Iraq!" and we wouldn't have to do that if everything went according to plan, the PNAC plan, and the plan of Richard Perle who told Dick Cheney that it would cost $60B because he actually believed that's what it would cost.
Another screw up: They actually *did* think there were WMDs to be found. I'm absolutely without a soubt certain of this. Here's my very simple logic: If they were making it up, they would've thought of something better. A doctrine of pre-emptive war based on the idea that Iraq has what are basically the same weapons as many of its neighbors is truly ludicrous. The ideal fictional story would have been that we were attacked not by Al Qaeda, but by the terrorists that Saddam Hussein had been funding and training to attempt to kick jews out of the West Bank and Gaza. There is of course, no evidence this is the case, and everyone is pretty sure that it isn't the case, but building this case would have been a hell of a lot stronger then the WMD argument. In fact, just about anything would have been stronger then the WMD argument. They went with it because they honestly believed it was true.
The fact is, these guys are not the brilliant Masterminds, they're not Dr. No, they're Pinky and the Brain meets Dortmunder.
What is it with you DREAMTROVE ..why do you have this insane need to make excuses for the Bush administration, its sick, do you need to have something to believe in so bad that you just can't help yourself. I'm assuming your a grown up person, I don't understand this constant need to make excuses for these crimnals, its not incomptence it really isn't how many insidents, above and beyond the many thats already happened is it going to take before you get it that its not incomptence, its deliberate, no one is that incomptent and the sooner you face up to that the sooner you can cure yourself of this addiction. I understand that some people have a great need, desire to believe in someone or something, but why for the love of all things good and beautiful why have you placed your need on the Bush administration? its woefully miss placed, why can't you see that? but its to the point where its like a woman who is being abused by her lover, and she keeps going back for more keeps making excuses even though she knows whats awaiting her. do yourself a favor stop making excuses get some help!! let the truth set you free, face the facts at the very least stop making excuses.
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Jenny,
The Bush Admin, not my favorite by a very long stretch, is a group of people who are in way over their heads. They may be corrupt, and crooked, and also blindly ideological, they might even be pinko neofascists. But they're also incompetent.
I believe deeply in their incompetence, because I was watching and I watched it unfold. Sure, they lie endlessly, to cover up for the fact that they don't know what they're doing. The president of the United States doesn't even know how to read! He's a fried out coke head, a morally bankrupt individual who doesn't know his ass from a whole in the ground. He bankrupted his own company, couldn't complete his military service because he couldn't pass a drug test, could barely pass his own classes and took 22 months to complete a six week flight training course. And you are telling me this guy is competent? If it weren't for his daddy lining it up for him, George W. Bush would probably be the homeless guy on the corner hold up a sign saying the End is Nigh.
I think an even moderate glimpse of not only Bush's life, but Cheney's as well, shows us that these guys are twice the fool needed to do something like this.
I already understand the whole situation very well. We're a free society, made up of corporations. You can start your own, join an existing one, or buy shares in one, and gain an interest. If they're wrong, you can oppose them in a court of law.
Bush is just a bad republican, with a lot of corrupt corporates steal money from the public till and lead by a bunch of pseudo-socialist ideologues to spend that money on a hairbrained scheme, and they're doing it all very badly.
I think honestly, they're nowhere near where they wanted to be when they started, and there's a decent chance a fair number of folks are going to prison when this is all said and done. I think it's a mistake to assume "Oh they'll just get away with it" The govt can and does sue companies for large amounts of money for their misconduct, and, though the Bush-Clinton crowd are loathe to think this, some day, someone else will be president, and they're beloved allies will face the same punishment they doled out to the tobacco companies, and be forced to pay it all back.
My role in this, is to help elect a better republican, who will be more pro-business, fight for more conservative values, and operate in a more overall republican manner and help repair the image of the US overseas. If I fail in that, and Bush and co stay in control of the GOP forever, ultimately, I might become a democrat. But honestly, I don't think we're there yet. At the moment I think the Bush-Clinton crowd has more control over the Democrats then they do over the Republicans, and I can kick them out.
Here's what I don't get. I know what I'm doing about it. What are you doing?
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Quote:
Jenny,
The Bush Admin, not my favorite by a very long stretch, is a group of people who are in way over their heads. They may be corrupt, and crooked, and also blindly ideological, they might even be pinko neofascists. But they're also incompetent
I know you have issues with the Bush administration, as any decent person would and should, but I don't see incomptence, nor do I really see Bush and co trying to cover it up they are just that arrogant. I've looked at the Project for a new American century and so far everything is fitting right in with the plan.
Quote:
I believe deeply in their incompetence, because I was watching and I watched it unfold. Sure, they lie endlessly, to cover up for the fact that they don't know what they're doing. The president of the United States doesn't even know how to read! He's a fried out coke head, a morally bankrupt individual who doesn't know his ass from a whole in the ground. He bankrupted his own company, couldn't complete his military service because he couldn't pass a drug test, could barely pass his own classes and took 22 months to complete a six week flight training course. And you are telling me this guy is competent? If it weren't for his daddy lining it up for him, George W. Bush would probably be the homeless guy on the corner hold up a sign saying the End is Nigh.
I truly do not see incomptence on Bush and Co's part, I see deliberate actions, you talk about abu Ghrib and the pictures getting out, the pictures getting out to the public wasn't planned but the torture was, those pictures getting out to the public does not make the toture incompetence.
language is a very powerful thing, when you say that deliberate actions are incomptence, that is making excuses, excuses for deliberate planned actions.
Karl Rove outting an under cover operative, and committing treason to try and discreit Joe Wilson , was not incomptence it was deliberate and done for that reason, I could go on and on and on, Giving Halliburton War contracts so that they could bilk the tax payers for all we're worth, was not incomptence, it was deliberate and was planned..Going to war with Iraq was not incomptence it was planned years before and it was deliberate.
so do you see my dilema when you use the words incomptence when describing the Bush administration, its time to call it like it is. and it isn't incomptence.
I agree with you I think most people would that Bush jr., is an idiot, a coked out alcoholic fool, I look at George Bush more as a puppet, and if the man had been raised to have a soul, I might even feel sorry for him, maybe once upon a time he did, but its obvious he can't feel things like most normal people, but he is only one person and its not just him alone thats running the show, he's just a figure head, just as Hitler is the figure head of the third Reich, but Hitler alone could never have done the things that happened in Nazi Germany.(i'm not saying Bush Jr is Hilter I'm just giving an example)
I just don't think you and many others want to see the true ugliness, and thats why you say things like Bush and Co are incomptent.
Quote:
My role in this, is to help elect a better republican, who will be more pro-business, fight for more conservative values, and operate in a more overall republican manner and help repair the image of the US overseas. If I fail in that, and Bush and co stay in control of the GOP forever, ultimately, I might become a democrat. But honestly, I don't think we're there yet. At the moment I think the Bush-Clinton crowd has more control over the Democrats then they do over the Republicans, and I can kick them out.
Here's what I don't get. I know what I'm doing about it. What are you doing?
I personally have no faith in either party be it Democrate or Republican, but I suppose there is still some hope!!, I'd like to believe that that there is still hope, without living in a bubble.
We are living in some serious times, more serious then I think the average person realize. where in a decline,
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The PNAC plan really called for them to have Iraq and Afghanistan by now and to be working on Iran and Syria. In reality we don't control either Iraq or Afghanistan and we have totally destroyed our credibility. This is not "according to plan" it's not even in the same county as the plan.
The Halliburton war contracts are really about maintaining control of the project, not about making money. Halliburton makes far more from its domestic projects like the Virginia Truckway, which it can carry out with no risk to itself. I wouldn't be surprised if they got some New Orleans contract as well. I think that if he wanted to just funnel money to Halliburton he could do it much easier without a war. There's an endless amount of work which needs doing here at home.
So I have to think that war was the goal, and Halliburton was enrolled to ensure that things went according to plan, which they haven't anyway.
Anyway, I'm not covering for him, just looking at the facts and telling you what I see. I know what they're master plan was, I was a regular visitor to the PNAC website long before 9.11 hit. And I was more or less on their side. But when it became clear that this was going to be a one sided war, and when Bush passed the patriot act to give himself emergency powers, I became suspicious. It's been a downhill slide from there. But I know the plan, and I see the results, and I still say I think they're more incompetent than anything else.
Even if you look past Bush and Past Cheney to Wolfowitz, Perle and co, these guys aren't Einstein. The smartest one among them is probably Bill Kristol, and I think even he is beginning to have his doubts that the plan is even doable. Fukuyama has already thrown in the towel and said basically this whole thing's a failure, neoconservatism is a failure. So, no, they're not happy with the results.
The Valerie Plame scandal, I agree, was an act of treason. Cheney did it to prevent Plame/Wilson from doing her job, which was to organize WMD intelligence gathering projects, because in her role, she was proving him wrong. At this point, I agree, Cheney knew he was wrong about WMD, and he destroyed Plame in an attempt to cover it up. Since the only net beneficiary of that is Al Qaeda and the enemies of the united states, something which Cheney must have known, it was a deliberate act of treason.
But that's just part of the endless f^&kup. He did it to cover his other screw ups. It's been one joyride down the drain.
I disagree about the voting system. I think that any group of organized voters can count their own votes, you can petition to remove voting machines, or you can have all of your people use absentee ballots or write ins. I guess in short I think this is a cop out. You can still organize.
I have hope for both parties. I think the democrats need to get behind their strong leaders like Feingold and Boxer, and stop playing this me too game that Hillary/Kerry et al do, and the GOP needs to cast of this fungus of neoconservatism, and return to what it used to be.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The PNAC plan really called for them to have Iraq and Afghanistan by now and to be working on Iran and Syria. In reality we don't control either Iraq or Afghanistan and we have totally destroyed our credibility. This is not "according to plan" it's not even in the same county as the plan.
The Halliburton war contracts are really about maintaining control of the project, not about making money. Halliburton makes far more from its domestic projects like the Virginia Truckway, which it can carry out with no risk to itself. I wouldn't be surprised if they got some New Orleans contract as well. I think that if he wanted to just funnel money to Halliburton he could do it much easier without a war. There's an endless amount of work which needs doing here at home.
So I have to think that war was the goal, and Halliburton was enrolled to ensure that things went according to plan, which they haven't anyway.
Anyway, I'm not covering for him, just looking at the facts and telling you what I see. I know what they're master plan was, I was a regular visitor to the PNAC website long before 9.11 hit. And I was more or less on their side. But when it became clear that this was going to be a one sided war, and when Bush passed the patriot act to give himself emergency powers, I became suspicious. It's been a downhill slide from there. But I know the plan, and I see the results, and I still say I think they're more incompetent than anything else.
Even if you look past Bush and Past Cheney to Wolfowitz, Perle and co, these guys aren't Einstein. The smartest one among them is probably Bill Kristol, and I think even he is beginning to have his doubts that the plan is even doable. Fukuyama has already thrown in the towel and said basically this whole thing's a failure, neoconservatism is a failure. So, no, they're not happy with the results.
The Valerie Plame scandal, I agree, was an act of treason. Cheney did it to prevent Plame/Wilson from doing her job, which was to organize WMD intelligence gathering projects, because in her role, she was proving him wrong. At this point, I agree, Cheney knew he was wrong about WMD, and he destroyed Plame in an attempt to cover it up. Since the only net beneficiary of that is Al Qaeda and the enemies of the united states, something which Cheney must have known, it was a deliberate act of treason.
But that's just part of the endless f^&kup. He did it to cover his other screw ups. It's been one joyride down the drain.
I disagree about the voting system. I think that any group of organized voters can count their own votes, you can petition to remove voting machines, or you can have all of your people use absentee ballots or write ins. I guess in short I think this is a cop out. You can still organize.
I have hope for both parties. I think the democrats need to get behind their strong leaders like Feingold and Boxer, and stop playing this me too game that Hillary/Kerry et al do, and the GOP needs to cast of this fungus of neoconservatism, and return to what it used to be.
WOW the excuses just keep coming!!
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Jenny,
Some hints:
1. Stop treating the world like it's your enemy. This strategy seldom gets any allies.
2. Nothing says that people can't be incompetent and corrupt and ideologues at the same time.
3. Stop making excuses yourself for why it won't help, and take action.
"All that is neccessary for evil to flourish is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke
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