Re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic

POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Thursday, March 30, 2006 06:32
VIEWED: 6568
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FLETCH2

Sunday, March 19, 2006 11:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Of course not, I never said it was. Okay, I just search on "MKULTRA" No one but you seems to think MK stood for Mind Kontrol.

That's because you are looking for legitimate documents on the CIA project MKULTRA. That project was to test drugs as debilitants and for interegation. Amongst other things it resulted in servicemen and even scientists being dosed with LSD without their knowledge, leading to at least one suicide.

That is NOT what we are talking about. MKULTRA as defined by PN and the rest of the foil hats was a project in mind control the US got from the Germans as part of Paperclip at the end of WW2. "MK" was from the German for "Mind Kontrol." Had you researched tinfoil hat sites you would have found that definition.

That definition appeared in several conspirasist books from the late 70's onwards. I haven't been able to find the text of the books online but here are a couple of references.

"It was not until the middle or late 1970's that the American public became aware of a series of hitherto secret programs that had been conducted over the preceding two decades by the military and intelligence community. [..] these extensive covert programs bore the project titles MKULTRA, MKDELTA, MKNAOMI, MKSEARCH (MK being understood to stand for Mind Kontrol), BLUEBIRD, ARTICHOKE and CHATTER. The principal aim of these and associated programs was the development of a reliable "programmable" assassin. Secondary aims were the development of a method of citizen control [based on Walter Bowart's Operation Mind Control (Fontana Books, London 1979)]."

"20. Marks, THE SEARCH FOR "THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE", 60-61. A folk etymology has it that the "MK" of MKULTRA stands for "Mind Kontrol." According to Marks, TSS prefixed the cryptonyms of all its projects with these initials. "

The problem you have here is one that is common in conspiracy circles. Some things get declassified, like lists of project names, and the conspiracists construct entire elaborate projects based on the name without regards to what the actual project did. So in tinhat land "MkULTRA" is the government mind control project, they even labeled it as such just in case you didn't get it. This is what we are talking about and it didn't exist. Back around 1990 even tinhats began to conclude that the government wouldnt put "MK" in front of a project name if it really meant mind control. It was about then that other project names started to be considered the big-bad-project and MKULTRA started to fall out of favor.

DREAMTROVE

Monday, March 20, 2006 4:25 AM

Fletch,

You may be right.

I didn't got to any tinfoil hat sites in my search. If I had, I might have gotten this impression. I thought I laid out the effect of MKULTRA on society in a much more plausible way, the one which I took PN to mean it in. He should feel free to weigh in here.

But I see your point. At the time, the phrase Mind Control would have been used because it refered to any psychotropic behavior. If you enter the mental state, that was mind control, it didn't litterally me control the mind, it only came to mean that in the film Manchurian Candidate in 1962. To the best of my knowledge.

What I found led me to the conclusion that it became MKSEARCH when it was restricted to *only* interrogation, but other possible uses had been considered. In the early nuclear age, there was a serious fear that in a nuclear conflict, soldiers would lose their cool, and fail to fire on soviet silo targets or retallition positions, and that the sounter-response would be that the soviet union would completely annihilate the united states.

You're right. I don't think we had a program of Manchurian Candidate style assassins. Also I would take Mind Control to be more Mood Control, the way it would have been used.

I haven't spent that much time in tinfoil hatland. I encountered Alex Jones and David Icke before and thought they were both kooks, more over, control freaks, who sought to manipulate their audience into a following.

That doesn't mean that objectively I don't believe conspiracies exist. Largely I think the CIA are good guys, and the pentagon does what it can to win. Sometimes, clearly, they step over the line.

Conspiracies can and do exist. Quite recently, the idea that there was somehow a pentagon memo authorizing the use of torture, was dismissed as a clooney conspiracy theory, and the words "tinfoil hat" were actually used. We now know it most certainly did exist, and everyone has admitted this, and it is known as the Bybee Memorandum, and became pentagon policy.

Similarly, the idea of foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks, now proven by the August 6th PDB, was similarly dismissed, as was the idea that the plan for the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions were laid out prior to the WTC attacks, which is also now known.

So, as with hundreds of events throughout history, yesterday's conspiracy theory has become tomorrow's established fact.

This doesn't mean, certainly, that there aren't a bunch of loons our there who think the world is being controlled by aliens.

But it does mean that every logical theory needs to be carefully examined with all due skepticism, but without flat blanket upfront rejection.

CITIZEN

Monday, March 20, 2006 9:09 AM

I fail to see how the world being secretly controlled by British-Commie-Nazi-Jews under the control of the all powerfull British Queen (who much like the US President, has no real power) who is a devil worshiper who has regular sex orgies with George Bush Jnr while sacrificing blow up dolls to santa can be considered, by any stretch of the imagination, a logical theory.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

FLETCH2

Monday, March 20, 2006 9:45 AM

The MKULTRA story goes something like this. In the 1950's Stalin did a number of show trials during which various dissidents and old party members confessed to being on the West's payroll. There were some truely astounding courtroom confessions, enough that some in the US believed that the explanation had to be something other than plain old fashioned torture.

It's generally accepted now that the "Manchurian Candidate" idea was floated by the CIA to create the perception that the Soviets had a lead in mind manipulation techniques that the US had to close (much like the space race.)

We know that the CIA tried various techniques for interegation, including sense and sleep deprevation, techniques used to induce muscle stress on the body and various drugs including LSD. We also know that they experimented with LSD as a leadership debilitation weapon, ie just before a push you dose the opposing general staff with LSD to fowl up their command and control. With this in mind they did secret "deployment tests" against servicemen, scientists and government contractors to see if they could spike drinks, food etc with LSD without people realising. We know of at least one casualty of this testing.

Around 1973 things start going a little tinfoily. That was the year a former model called Candy Jones claimed that she had spent the last 10 years leading (literally) a double life as CIA agent Arlene Grant. According to Candy through drugs and hypnosis the "Grant" personality was groomed and trained as a spy, doing missions for the CIA without the primary personalities knowledge. As far as I know she never claimed any connection with MKULTRA back in '73, just a "project." Most folk didn't believe her, tinfoils did. So later when MKULTRA was partially declasified in Senate hearings, tinhatted types decided this must be Candy's "project" and the link was made (including the MK == Mind Kontrol idea.)

Now there are a number of suggestions as to what the whole "Candy" thing was about.

1) It was exactly as Candy says and she was used as a hypnotic spy by the CIA.

2) Candy was a nut.

3) Candy and her husband had a syndicated radio show at the time and this generated a lot of publicity. This was a time when the government was trusted least by people and Candy's hubby had previous history hoaxing his listeners.

4) Candy was "deprogrammed" by her husband, an amateur hypnotist, thus setting up the possibility of a false memory syndrome event.

In any case by the late 70's the connection between "mind control" and MKULTRA had been made.

CITIZEN

Monday, March 20, 2006 11:35 AM

5) Candy was knobbing the Milkman and made up the story to explain where she went when she dissapeared on her secret "dirty" weekend "missions".

Her Husband is so dense he fell for it, along with a lot of other people.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

DREAMTROVE

Monday, March 20, 2006 4:10 PM

Fletch, you know a lot about this stuff.

But I agree with Citizen's explanation :)

FLETCH2

Monday, March 20, 2006 5:15 PM

Well the problem with that is that according to Candy this had all stopped by the time she met her hubbie. Though a friend did point out that it's a fantastic way to explain any ...... gaps.... in your history.

PIRATEJENNY

Monday, March 20, 2006 6:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
We the people *are* the corporations. Obsessed that the corporations are taking over? Go down and sign up, become a corporation. It's easier than joining the military. Hell, become a lobby group, PAC, be the "special interests." Become a faith-based initative. All of these things are just euphamisms for the American People. Politicians and tin foil hat ranters alike want voters to focus their anger against the American people. Turn us against one another, ignore the real enemies of america.

Here are the enemies of America: Al Qaeda and their sponsors in the arabian penninsula. Communists everywhere. Criminals within the US but don't follow the rules of America. One of my problems with Bush is that he seems to be in league with all three. My other problem with him is that he is incompetent, and if he were my employee I'd fire him.

I'm so tired of people saying that Bush and Co are incompetent they are not INCOMPETENT!!, they know exactly what they are doing, its deliberate, I know thats hard for some people to fanthom but its the truth.
we the people are corporations !! ROTFLMAO!!

Isn't it suppose to be we the people are the government, government by the people for the people.

Corportations represent their own interest not mines or the welfare of the people.

keep on telling yourself that

, yes sure I could go out and start a corportaion, but without the finances and power of a large monied corporation it wouldn't really matter one way or the other, buy yourself a clue Dreamtrove, you can't be serious!! maybe I should have said Big Corporations.

most people just aren't looking at things the way they really are, Big Corporations are practically running the country now, and with Bush and his cronies in office they are making it happen.And YES big corporations are the enemy for the most part because they are going to be our undoing,does it have to be that way, NO it doesn't but thats the way it is,Alot of these corporations have no vested intrest in the U.S.A thats why they take their companies overseas to countries like India for the cheaper labor while leaving us high and dry, selfishness, greed, run rampant, the only thing they want Americans to do is keep consuming, look at the laws and bills that have been passed that benifit corporations but not the citazen, the clear skies initative is just one example, or the laws they are passing in the dead of night that make our water unsuitable to drink, or the USDA standards thatlets the corpations give us chemically tainted food. Our standard of living are going way down, you might not realize it now, but you will, everyone is so focused on other things gawd knows there are many things to be distracted and focused on, but its our own country thats in serious trouble. but until it starts directly effecting you, your going to continue to live in la,la land, what will it take for people to wake up and see, my guess is the middle class being squeezed out until there is only those that have and those that do not, but my then it will be to late, it already is..I guess it must be nice to live in la,la land to bask in the bubble before it pops. re-arrange all the deck chairs you want, it doesn't matter this ship is sinking, its going down.

Al Qaeda and other terroist groups are just one of many enemies of the U.S.A but frankly I'm more concerned with our own current government then I am of Al Qaeda! actually Al Quaeda doesn't bother me at all,they are going to do what they are going to do reguardless.

but thanks for the laugh

whoes side are you on??
I'm on nobodys side, because nobodys on my side

PIRATEJENNY

Monday, March 20, 2006 7:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Of course not, I never said it was. Okay, I just search on "MKULTRA" No one but you seems to think MK stood for Mind Kontrol.

That's because you are looking for legitimate documents on the CIA project MKULTRA. That project was to test drugs as debilitants and for interegation. Amongst other things it resulted in servicemen and even scientists being dosed with LSD without their knowledge, leading to at least one suicide.

That is NOT what we are talking about. MKULTRA as defined by PN and the rest of the foil hats was a project in mind control the US got from the Germans as part of Paperclip at the end of WW2. "MK" was from the German for "Mind Kontrol." Had you researched tinfoil hat sites you would have found that definition.

That definition appeared in several conspirasist books from the late 70's onwards. I haven't been able to find the text of the books online but here are a couple of references.

"It was not until the middle or late 1970's that the American public became aware of a series of hitherto secret programs that had been conducted over the preceding two decades by the military and intelligence community. [..] these extensive covert programs bore the project titles MKULTRA, MKDELTA, MKNAOMI, MKSEARCH (MK being understood to stand for Mind Kontrol), BLUEBIRD, ARTICHOKE and CHATTER. The principal aim of these and associated programs was the development of a reliable "programmable" assassin. Secondary aims were the development of a method of citizen control [based on Walter Bowart's Operation Mind Control (Fontana Books, London 1979)]."

"20. Marks, THE SEARCH FOR "THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE", 60-61. A folk etymology has it that the "MK" of MKULTRA stands for "Mind Kontrol." According to Marks, TSS prefixed the cryptonyms of all its projects with these initials. "

The problem you have here is one that is common in conspiracy circles. Some things get declassified, like lists of project names, and the conspiracists construct entire elaborate projects based on the name without regards to what the actual project did. So in tinhat land "MkULTRA" is the government mind control project, they even labeled it as such just in case you didn't get it. This is what we are talking about and it didn't exist. Back around 1990 even tinhats began to conclude that the government wouldnt put "MK" in front of a project name if it really meant mind control. It was about then that other project names started to be considered the big-bad-project and MKULTRA started to fall out of favor.

Oh such Bull Crap!! if ever I've heard it, the MK ULTRA is very real indeed and the CIA has never stopped using mind control/brainwashing you talk as if you are an expert on the situation..ARE YOU IN THE CIA?????? didn't think so,....
and even if you were I would take what your saying with a grain of salt, because when has the CIA ever been upfront with the public, its a secret organization that operates by doing covert,black operations that the average and unaverage person never knows anything about accept what they want us to know.... so save your so called expertise for the garabage can!! its one thing to have an opinion but to sit up and say it isn't so is just a load of CRAP!!

you don't have to go far to see/ brain washing a form of mind control being applied at work by the government, just go to any miltary branch and get a good look at boot cramp!! mind control works and the government and CIA don't stop using something that works, they usually perfect it.

Go buy yourself a tinfoil hat you seem to need one badly it just might help charge your brain and help your thinking.

FLETCH2

Monday, March 20, 2006 7:38 PM

I suspect I started to look into this before you were even born. I've watched while theory X becomes "the theory" and watched again as it fell out of favour to theory Y. It's a lot like watching people piece together bits and pieces of TV show's like Firefly or B5. They get a couple of pieces of real information and construct a huge complex "explanation" that links all the pieces. Thye end up investing so much in it that when new information comes along later they are too wedded to the concept to abandon it. They would rather maul and mutilate the information they have to make it fit than abandon it. That's why PN's grand universal "theory" has so many actors. He built up a picture of "the man" who is keeping him down and if something else happens to him that the theory doesnt explain he adds another branch to the "conspiracy" rather than just face the notion that he could be a screw up.

It's called "Magical thinking" it has the same basis as believing in fairies, goblins or a pantheon of warring gods. Most people come to the conclusion that there are uncontrolled events, some people can't do that, it makes them impotent, vulnerable to whims of nature and of life. These people look for an underlying mechanism that explains why things happen to them. Since random chance terrifies them they actually prefer to be the victim of copricious supernatural forces rather than live with the fear of randomness or their own failings. Once upon a time if your crops failed you might conclude that you upset some minor god. these days it's jewish conspiracies with black helicopters or little grey aliens from space. The nature of the "enemy" has changed but it's basic nature never does, it is always all powerful and if you are paranoid enough all powerful and willing to waste it's time messing with YOU. Makes you important you see? God may be peeing on you but at least he pays you attention.

So just for once Jenny, stop being PN's poodle and you know... actually think for yourself.

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