As per Cartoon's request - continued religous debate thread
POSTED BY: Amiton
UPDATED: Thursday, October 19, 2023 18:55
VIEWED: 3098
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Hopefully this will help a little, Cartoon, but I suspect there are still going to be posts on the other thread =p
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Originally posted by Cartoon:
If you've seen my previous post to Burn, I recommend studying the Bible first and foremost.
Naturally, I'd recommend a good translation (not a paraphrase -- which isn't a literal translation). None of us instinctively know how to study the Bible, so I recommend a brief study in hermeneutics, too.
Naturally, if you know Hebrew & Greek, all the better (I don't, and have to rely on very expensive interlinears, lexicons, and the like).
The reason being -- we have good manuscript evidence that most of the Hebrew and Greek translations we have today (with only a few minor, non-critical variances) are accurate. Unfortunately, the scriptures were't written in English -- so no English translation will be as good (or relay as exactly) what the original language does.
I'd also recommend Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ" (which is very affordable in soft-cover), which goes into some keen arguments about Christianity. I found it very interesting (although, I admit I was already a believer when I read it).
If you want solid evidence, though, I don't think it exists in a subjective form that will satisfy everyone. As I said previously (in the last response), God wants us to believe by faith, but of course, our faith doesn't have to be (or shouldn't be) without some factual basis.
Just as a point, I have read the bible in its entirety. That was a natural starting place for my search for the path twenty years ago
I do need to look into hermeneutics as you suggest, though. That's always been one of my major peeves with religous debates since I read the bible.I do know that a lot of the modern bible translations are fairly accurate, courtesy of Luther and Wycliffe and their "heretical" deviation from the Latin Vulgate. We're pretty deeply in their debt. Unfortunately, I don't know Greek, Latin, or Hebrew. Something I'd like to remedy someday in my academic study of religion, but I'm not holding my breath. I also have a copy of Strobel's book. I do have to say that as an outsider looking in, his way of portraying the information in his book did more to reject Christianity prior to my acceptance of belief than any other single thing in my experiences. To be fair, it was a prejudice based in how his style and approach affected me than the information in the book, though.
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Yes (the Bible supports that assertion).
Well, we have it (on God's authority) that He is those things and will (in His perfect time) eventually set things right. (If I misunderstood your question, or you want more detail, please request it privately. I already feel like I'm hogging this thread, and it's taking forever to load with my decrepid dial-up).
Bah, you're not hogging a thread, you're participating in discourse
For some reason, though, I think a lot of people have stopped contributing. Religion is always touchy for some people, though.My assertion with the question, however, is if there is a battle between good and evil when one is an all-knowing, all-powerful being (and only one), then how is there a battle at all unless it is the will of the creator? In that light, if the creator is all-*, then there is an indictment of some sort against Him (Him, historical, btw). Either He's allowing an evil to exist when he has means to stop it ir He wants it there. Period. The only other option I see is that He's not all-*. Like I said earlier, I don't want to believe that, and as you said, the Bible tells me so =p For me it's not a bad indictment. I think that what we refer to as evil is necessary as part of His design, but we in our lack of understanding want to assert it to something it's not. If there is a devil, I think he gets credit for a lot of stuff that he didn't do. At the end of the day, though, if a devil does exist, he's still part of the creation and subject to the will of the all-* creator.
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Cartoon said:
"Hitler's punishment may be worse in hell than a more moralistic unbeliever, but either way, why go to hell in the first place, when there's already a ticket with your name on it waiting to be redeemed and take you to be with the Lord?"
You mean, he'll be deeper in the magma than I will??
And how exactly can you be 'punished' without a body to feel the punishment with? Is it like in "What Dreams May Come"? (A very good movie, btw,IMHO)
Or is it like a really long time-out?
It can't be purely a mental thing, that would suggest that a spirit has a mental capacity that only a brain would manifest...or do spirits have brains?
If it's purely spiritual, why can't Satan put you in Hell while your spirit is in your body, or does a body produce a sort of 'bio-electric sheild' against that sort of thing?
Or is Hell geographical, like you literally go (On a long physical journey) to Hell?
What if you make dirty jokes at the Devil's expense, does your punishment get harder, or softer?
We need answers!
Either way...
Devil, I don't play well w/others in Hell!
Beligerent to Satan Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Hopefully this will help a little, Cartoon, but I suspect there are still going to be posts on the other thread =p
Thank you. My gratitude knows no bounds.
Notice that Queen went and posted in there anyhow, just to irritate me.
But I can never say anything against her -- sweet, precious, northern-type sovereign (or "sovereign's consort" -- the title is applicable to both) that she is (she can kill me with her brain, so I have to pretend that's she very amiable and the like)...Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Just as a point, I have read the bible in its entirety. That was a natural starting place for my search for the path twenty years ago
Yes. Unfortunately, man has tried (and often succeeded) in messing it up (the understanding of the scriptures).
If we would only just get back to the basics, we'd do fine.
Everything I've read in heremeneutics is just common sense. We shouldn't have to read about "how to read the Bible".Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Unfortunately, I don't know Greek, Latin, or Hebrew. Something I'd like to remedy someday in my academic study of religion, but I'm not holding my breath.
I'm too lazy to learn either Hebrew or Greek (you don't need Latin for the original manuscripts). The whole "different" alphabet thing is irritating to lazy, English-speaking persons like myself. Even with my Hebrew-English interlinear, the Hebrew is in the Hebrew alphabet, not the English transliteration of it. Most annoying. And good lexicons are expensive (I don't have a good lexicon, but I have a great Hebrew-English interlinear).
Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
I also have a copy of Strobel's book. I do have to say that as an outsider looking in, his way of portraying the information in his book did more to reject Christianity prior to my acceptance of belief than any other single thing in my experiences.
Well, Strobel's whole approach was from his atheistic viewpoint. It was his "search" that turned him around. I found it fascinating from that standpoint alone.
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Originally posted by Amiton:
To be fair, it was a prejudice based in how his style and approach affected me than the information in the book, though.
I didn't have any problems with his style and approach, myself. What about it bothered you? (Just curious)(You can even tell me privately, if you don't want to go into it here)
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Originally posted by Amiton:
Bah, you're not hogging a thread, you're participating in discourse
Well, it feels that way at times. When I think I may be able to answer to someone's question, I want to attempt to answer it the best I can, but for most of these questions there are no short, easy answers. I know an internet forum (particularly one for a TV show) isn't the best place for a detailed analysis. One works with the tools they're given, though.
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Originally posted by Amiton:
Religion is always touchy for some people, though.
Nah. You think?
Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Either He's allowing an evil to exist when he has means to stop it ir He wants it there. Period. The only other option I see is that He's not all-*. Like I said earlier, I don't want to believe that, and as you said, the Bible tells me so
Well, believing the Bible (as we both claim to do) sort of us throws the second option out of the equation, altogether. And, as I tried feebly to explain previously, I don't think this is something anyone can understand on this side of a subsequent, divine enlightment. I mean, seriously, if apparently the angels (who are in God's presence) are curious about it, it's certainly beyond the understanding of the likes of you and I.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You mean, he'll be deeper in the magma than I will??
I don't know. Scripture doesn't elaborate.
As far as you are concerned, though, why go at all?
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Originally posted by chrisisall:
And how exactly can you be 'punished' without a body to feel the punishment with?
Well, everyone is getting a new body. The scripture does say that. And apparently, they will be eternal bodies (which cannot die).
The Bible isn't all that descriptive about either heaven or hell. The few details it offers on heaven are at the very end of the Bible, and the few on hell come from Jesus's own mouth in the gospels. I don't even know if the fire is literal or figurative. Point is, I don't want to be there. Jesus's mention of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" should be enough of a description to convince most people that they'd rather be elsewhere.
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Can someone please address my questions in the above post? I haven't got all century....
Edit: I edited the post w/more queries...
Chrisisall in a handbasket
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Quote:Cannot die? Are they mechanical? Or do they get re-generated moment by moment by some nano-field?
Originally posted by cartoon:
Well, everyone is getting a new body. The scripture does say that. And apparently, they will be eternal bodies (which cannot die).
Do they come w/a warranty?
Amusing hisself to no end Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Cannot die? Are they mechanical? Or do they get re-generated moment by moment by some nano-field?
Do they come w/a warranty?
I believe God guaratees everything He does. I suppose you can consider that a "warranty" of sorts.
How are they made? Probably the same way He made everything in creation. You know, He is handy like that.
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*Wiping tears from his eyes*
I must appologize. My Wife pointed out that I stepped over the line here...
So I asked, "How thick exactly is that line? Did I cross it, or am I merely 'in' it, and not yet past it's border? Who drew this 'line', anyway? Is it theoretical?"
..she's gonna hit me....
Whimsical in the brainpan Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
What if you make dirty jokes at the Devil's expense, does your punishment get harder, or softer?
Trying to answer a facetious question honestly...
The bible doesn't address jokes at the devil's expense, but from my understanding, he's going to be an eternal inmate there just like everyone else.
Either way -- it's not a place one wants to even visit, much less spend an eternity.
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You are so a gentleman, Cartoon.
Thanks for taking my nonsense in the spirit in which it was intended...well, mostly intended...
Looney Chrisisall
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