My case for why there is no conscious, seperate entity such as God (Bible-like God, that is)

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, March 19, 2006 08:14
VIEWED: 18094
PAGE 9 of 11

PREV PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 NEXT PAGE

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 17, 2006 3:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:

To be intelletually responsible, I must hasten to add that the rules of predicate logic disallow the predication of existence. A number of philosophers, Aristotle and Kant among them, agreed in some form with the maxim that existence cannot be predicated of thing. This would jeopardize any argument which predicated existence to some particular.)

Wow.
I asked for it, I guess

My main argument really is this:
a) People feel the need to fully understand everything.
b) People cannot fully understand everything.
c) God is part of everything.
Therefore:
d) People cannot fully understand God.

Those that say they 'know', simply cannot. They are formulating their answers from their own understanding, or the imparted understanding of others.

So be at peace with not fully understanding.
But anyone saying "I know..." smacks of pride...

Chrisisall, who knows this...

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 17, 2006 3:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

I'm sure I sound fairly crazy to others at times , myself -- well, maybe more than just "at times".

Cartoon, you're a very agreeable sort, and your belief seems true. The only time you sound crazy to me is when you wax political, but we'll save that for another thread...

Chrisisall, always startin' some felgercarb

CARTOON

Friday, March 17, 2006 3:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BurnTheLand:
(although why I'm looking on a message board for a TV show, however great that show may be, is not entirely clear).

It is kind of ironic, isn't it?

Doesn't make any sense to me, either.

Quote:
Originally posted by BurnTheLand:
I guess my question has to do with "Why?" If God created humankind, why did he create us with the capability to do such harm to one another?

I don't know the answer to that, Burn, and there's no reason my speculation would be any better than anyone else's. Nonetheless, going by what I've seen in the scriptures as a whole leaves me to believe that God is truly sorrowed by our sin and pain.

Jesus sorrowed over the city of Jerusalem just days before His crucifixion because He knew that the city would be destroyed in a few short decades (as He said, because it didn't recognize the time of His visitation). He was sorrowful because He wanted to see His people saved, but they persistently refused (as we all have throughout time).

Unfortunately, the thing we (as created beings) can't seem to grasp (or don't want to accept) is the fact that there are consequences to our actions -- temporal consequences as well as eternal consequences. Why God didn't simply just wipe out the earth entirely after the garden and start over, I have no clue. None of it makes any sense to me (and as I stated previously, apparantly the angels of heaven don't quite get it, either). But, He is God, and we are not. And I do trust Him even though none of it (including the abject hardship of my own life) makes the least bit of sense to me.

Quote:
Originally posted by BurnTheLand:
If he loves us so, and wants us to follow him, why do we kill each other over the manner in which he should be worshipped? And if he is seeing this, why does he allow it to continue?

Well, because God's enemy (and ours) doesn't want to see people coming to the Lord to be saved. And once they're saved, the devil doesn't want them to be effective -- he wants to destroy their witness so others will look on them in derision (and thereby refuse their witness of the gospel, themselves).

The devil has been around longer than any human, and he's seen it all. He knows all our weaknesses, and strikes us each individually at our weakest places.

He also knows that mankind (in general) has a God-shaped emptiness in their hearts which can only be filled by God, and mankind, even when they don't realize it, are trying to jam other things (counterfeit things) into that emptiness (riches, possessions, entertainment, friends, sex, etc.) -- not that any of these things are wrong in themselves, but they were never meant to replace God.

The devil realizes that because of that emptiness, some people might actually stumble upon God, and he doesn't want that. So, because the devil is a liar (Jesus said so on several occasions), he throws counterfeit means of salvation at them -- and most people (either because they were "raised" to believe a certain way, or because they're too lazy to look into the scriptures for themselves and find where it may contradict what they've been hearing elsewhere), fall for the lie.

I did, myself, for more years than I'd like to admit. And it's very difficult to break away from a lifetime of thinking things go one way, when in actualility (according to the scriptures) they go another.

Quote:
Originally posted by BurnTheLand:
Why create us with carnal desires that we need to repress in order to live more "holy" lives?

Because most carnal desires (food, friendship, sex, etc.) in and of themselves are not evil. But our sin nature has twisted them, and we desire them in a manner apart from the way in which God intended for us to enjoy them. And naturally (as I said above), the devil uses those desires to bait us. You can't bait a fish with something the fish doesn't want -- so the devil uses what we want to lure us deeper into the pit of sin. He tells us, "God won't care

CARTOON

Friday, March 17, 2006 3:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The only time you sound crazy to me is when you wax political, but we'll save that for another thread...

Political?

Me?!?!?

You can't make a really good fruit salad without throwing in a few nuts.

AMITON

Friday, March 17, 2006 4:00 PM

Somehow, based off of what you have said in the past, Chris, I was able to fairly accurately know what you were going to have for answers =p So in that light, yeah, that all made sense to me =p I'm actually worried that explaining my reasoning behind asking the questions will kill some of the discourse, but maybe it'll inspire even more =p

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Try not to think of it in terms of 'right' and 'wrong', we're fluid beings, and so our thoughts will inevitably change and evolve. The path you choose now will lead to the one in your future, and like Herbal says, "It's all good" (Unless you kill in the name of your god...)

You might have picked up on this, Chris, but the reason I was asking is because of the fracturing of the Judeo-Christian factions. The question is almost entirely academic. Most of the organized western religous factions have the "do my thing or burn in hell" thing going, rather than the be groovy to one another and be uplifted thing. You being a buddhist, you're working from a serious advantage =p

There have been a lot of twentieth and twenty-first century discoveries of ancient documents and digs. All we can really do is hypothesize and interpret and cross-reference. I'm sure the truth is somewhere, but do we have any way to decisively figure out which truth (given certain assumptions, e.g. after I've picked the right direction, now we can say with certainty that this interpretation of this philosophy is the right one). Does that make any sense at all?

Quote:
Good, evil, hot, cold, all degrees of the same thing. Everything is a reflection of everything else. If we were created by a 'creator', then in my view, he popped us out and went on about his other buisness.

That is definitely a possibility. One that I consider from time to time academically, but I don't want to really believe deep down.

This question is actually a problem that I struggle with intellectually as a believer, though. I want to believe that the creator is all-knowing and all-powerful, like I was taught as a kid. That's most likely the focal point of my problem, but it's what I believe, admittedly because I want to. The problem arises that I can't understand how there is a battle between good and evil, or a battle of any sort for that matter, between an all-knowing, all powerful force and, well, anything at all. The battle would be over before it began.

Furthermore, this battle would be between an all-knowing, all-powerful creator and one of his creations. Erm...well. If the creator is all-knowing, then that includes the future (another possible source of idiocy in my perspective and another point that I hold onto in spite of the problems it causes). If the creator knew evil was going to arise from this or that being, the devil or otherwise, then why go down that path?? And if he did go down that path, he's all powerful... if the evil makes him unhappy and goes against his will, then it should be eradicated, shouldn't it? He's all-powerful, he doesn't like it, and it's in his creation. *Poof* it's done, right?

Those issues led me into a lot of reflection on free-will versus pre-destination. I think that could end up being a thread by itself with so much to say about it, but it led to the third question, which you answered thus:

Quote:
I cried when Vader saved Luke from the Emperor.
No, I would be happy to see all brought into the light. Drop away the Earthly/corporeal psychosis, and we're all the same- children of and through God.

Make any sense?

Wacky spiritual fun Chrisisall

I pretty much agree as far as I can here. If we're all children of the light and we all seek to be groovy with each other, then it should make us happy to see everyone make the journey. Hitler did some pretty messed up things for some pretty messed up reason, though. I'd venture to think that there are a *lot* of people would be pretty upset if someone like that can find grace for any reason.

The interesting point that

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 17, 2006 4:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
If Christianity is not going to destroy us with war and intolerance it will have to be cleansed of the Earthly Church, which means it will have to be cleansed of the Bible.

Mighty strong words, pardner.
I happen to agree.

Two score and ten years ago, I threw a circular punch at my opponent in Karate class, and nailed him (we were padded), the teacher stopped us and informed me that "We don't use 'circular' strikes in this style." In that moment I understood what Bruce Lee was trying to say; organization corrupts, limits and controls the initial idea.

Independant Chrisisall

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Friday, March 17, 2006 4:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think it's because children are deemed more innocent, or less culpable, than adults and don't "deserve" to suffer.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

Yes, but that's exactly my point. Is the adult who led a really good life (as in, they were as decent a human being as you could ever see) but is still suffering and dying, deserve their suffering more than a child, just because they're older? In fact, couldn't you make the case that a person like this deserves their suffering less because they've struggled with their inherently evil nature all their life and still come out as a good person? Whereas the only reason the child is a good, innocent person is simply because they haven't been alive long enough to do something bad yet. That's the point I'm trying to make.

So, Chrisisall, my posts aren't invisible. Good to know. Anyway, I'm a little confused as to your reply. Are you saying that you don't think children deserve suffering less than others, but you simply brought up that point because you thought it would stir everybody up the most? If so, good call.

What is it, eighty replies now? Well, anyway, I'm of the opinion that without suffering, there is no joy. So I'll take the suffering as it comes and enjoy life in between.

Oh, and Cartoon, I can still kill you with my brain.

"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."

"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."

Like books? Go to this thread: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=14862
to find out how to buy mine!

CARTOON

Friday, March 17, 2006 4:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
First, is there any way (in your esteemed opinions), that we can ever *know* what the truth to believe is or which path is the right one? Obviously, there is a decision to believe or not believe, and that evidence is on the table. If you choose to believe, however, how do you know which version is right?

Hi. Welcome to the discussion.

If you've seen my previous post to Burn, I recommend studying the Bible first and foremost. Naturally, I'd recommend a good translation (not a paraphrase -- which isn't a literal translation). None of us instinctively know how to study the Bible, so I recommend a brief study in hermeneutics, too.

Naturally, if you know Hebrew & Greek, all the better (I don't, and have to rely on very expensive interlinears, lexicons, and the like). The reason being -- we have good manuscript evidence that most of the Hebrew and Greek translations we have today (with only a few minor, non-critical variances) are accurate. Unfortunately, the scriptures were't written in English -- so no English translation will be as good (or relay as exactly) what the original language does.

I'd also recommend Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ" (which is very affordable in soft-cover), which goes into some keen arguments about Christianity. I found it very interesting (although, I admit I was already a believer when I read it).

If you want solid evidence, though, I don't think it exists in a subjective form that will satisfy everyone. As I said previously (in the last response), God wants us to believe by faith, but of course, our faith doesn't have to be (or shouldn't be) without some factual basis.

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Second, do you believe that the creator (under the assumption that there is one) is ominscient and omnipotent? How does that belief work in the construct of the battle between good and evil?

Yes (the Bible supports that assertion).

Well, we have it (on God's authority) that He is those things and will (in His perfect time) eventually set things right. (If I misunderstood your question, or you want more detail, please request it privately. I already feel like I'm hogging this thread, and it's taking forever to load with my decrepid dial-up).

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Third, would you be angry if someone who you considered deeply evil, Hitler for example, was in Heaven (or the positive afterlife of your choosing)?

Our first instinct is to be quite angry. I admit it, myself, that the thought of some child molester/serial killer getting in at the last minute (as Ted Bundy allegedly did) is quite disturbing. But, that's because we're seeing it from the eyes of someone who (quite frankly) is closer in nature to Hitler than we are to God.

I tried to explain this previously (our distance from God's holiness), but let me try another analogy (and I hate analogies)...

Let's say that we consider our own "moral" geographical location to be in Central Park, NYC.

Someone else we know may be located in Battery Park (about 5 miles south of us). Still others may be way down in Florida. We might argue that possibly Hitler would be somewhere around Buenos Aires (some conspiratorial nuts used to actually believe that)...

Anyhow, compared to the guy in Battery Park, Hitler's quite a ways away from us in our "moral" geographical positioning, right?

But then you throw God into the equation -- and where is God? Well, He's way off in another universe (not just another galaxy in our universe, but in a whole other universe altogether).

So, from our perspective, Hitler seems much worse than us (in Central Park). But, from God's perspective, Hitler and we are two peas of the same pod.

Hitler's punishment may be worse in hell than a more moralistic unbeliever, but either way, why go to hell in the first place, when there's already a ticket with your name on it waiting to be redeemed and take you to be with the Lord?

:smi

CARTOON

Friday, March 17, 2006 4:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by queenofthenorth:
Oh, and Cartoon, I can still kill you with my brain.

Oh -- thanks.

I'll sleep a whole lot more comfortably tonight, knowing that!

(And she wonders why people ignore her posts...)

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Friday, March 17, 2006 4:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Oh -- thanks.

I'll sleep a whole lot more comfortably tonight, knowing that!

(And she wonders why people ignore her posts...)

Haha. My plan is coming to fruition.

"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."

"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."

Like books? Go to this thread: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=14862
to find out how to buy mine!

PREV PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 NEXT PAGE