Real World Event Discussions

My case for why there is no conscious, seperate entity such as God (Bible-like God, that is)

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, March 19, 2006 08:14
VIEWED: 18094
PAGE 8 of 11

HKCAVALIER

Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
As a Christian, though, I'm also a bit concerned about what you said above, because there's a fine line between "self-esteem" and "pride" (the latter which is a sin). While I agree we should not be unduly down on ourselves, neither should we think of ourselves more highly than we should. Where to draw that distinction (at least to me) is a fuzzy one.

Heya, Cartoon, thanks for your very civil reply.

Yes, it was the pride thing in the first place that set me off. The whole pride=sin concept is sooooo 13th century, dude--been there, done that!

Seriously, the doctrine of the seven deadly sins is not in the Bible, Jesus had nothing to say on the matter, the whole thing was a medieval improvization on a theme of wickedness.

Quote:
The only thing appealing about the cross is that God loved us enough to go through that horrible, humiliating death to pay the price for those who would freely receive it. If anything, the horror of the cross should show us how bad our sin must be in God's eyes that this was the price it cost Jesus to pay for it.

"...how bad our sin must be..." I have to disagree here. To my mind, the crucifixion is a genuine mystery. The doctine of God coming to free us from sin is only hinted at in only one of the four gospels--and the last one to boot, written over a hundred years after the facts--and the writer of John's gospel absolutely had an axe to grind on the subject. He was promoting a whole way of interpreting the life and works of Jesus that the power brokers within the early church liked a good deal better than, oh say, the version of divinity presented in the gospel of Thomas.

Furthermore, I perceive that procelytism (i.e.: coercion, manipulation and scare tactics) is evil. No real good comes from convertion--whatever good there is in a Christian life (and there can be much) happens inspite of having one's mind attacked and weakened in this way. Jesus instructed his deciples to go out and tell the world his story, he didn't say anything about telling people they would burn in hell if they didn't go to mass every Sunday. What happened to the church from the get go was human power-hunger, plain and simple; the will of men like Paul to dominate others.

Organized religion doesn't work. Theocracies, across the board, have been at the root of the vast majority of atrocities throughout history. And as far as I can glean from Jesus' few words, he advised his followers to stay out of politics and the religion business, period. Oh well.

Thanks again, Cartoon, for reading my post without prejudice. That means a lot to me.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SIGNYM

Friday, March 17, 2006 12:12 AM

Sayings from the Gospel of Thomas:

2) [Jesus said]: "Let him who seeks not cease until he finds, and when he finds he shall wonder; wondering he shall reign, and reigning shall rest."

3) Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. [Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

4) Jesus said: "Let the old man who is full of days not hesitate to ask the child of seven days about the place of life; then he will live. For many that are first will be last, and last, first, and they will become a single one."

5) Jesus said: "Recognize what is before your face and that which is hidden from the you will be revealed to you. For there is nothing hidden which shall not be made manifest, nor buried which shall not be raised."

6) His disciples asked him and said to him, "How do you want us to fast? And how shall we pray? And how [shall we] give alms? And what kind of diet shall we follow?" Jesus said, "Do not lie, and do not do what you hate, for all things are disclosed before truth. For there is nothing hidden which shall not be shown forth."

27) Jesus said: "Unless you fast to the world, you shall in no way find the Kingdom of God; and unless you sabbatize the Sabbath, you shall not see the Father."

28) Jesus said: "I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh I was seen by them, and I found all drunken, and I found none among them thirsty. And my soul grieved over the souls of men, because they are blind in their heart and see not. [...]

Just FYI

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

CARTOON

Friday, March 17, 2006 12:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Heya, Cartoon, thanks for your very civil reply.

You're welcomed.

People can disagree without becoming disagreeable -- and I have to say I've found more to disagree with in your last response than in your initial post.

It's difficult without going into great detail (which I could -- but which would likely just result in us going back and forth, ad naseum), but just a few brief comments if I may...

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Yes, it was the pride thing in the first place that set me off. The whole pride=sin concept is sooooo 13th century, dude--been there, done that!

Actually, just to site a single example, Jesus specifically mentions "pride" as a sin in Mark 7 (along with a whole lot of other sins which "defile a man from within").

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The doctine of God coming to free us from sin is only hinted at in only one of the four gospels--and the last one to boot, written over a hundred years after the facts--and the writer of John's gospel absolutely had an axe to grind on the subject.

Just to site a few in the other gospels, in the very first chapter of Matthew, the angel announcing Jesus's birth to Mary: "He will save His people from their sins." In Mark 2, Jesus says to the crowd that He came "to call sinners to repentence". In Luke 1, Zacharias prophesies that Jesus would give knowledge of salvation by the remission of their sins, etc. That's one example from each of the other gospels just in the first few chapters of each book. There are many many more throughout.

Regarding John's gospel, it was written by the apostle John during his lifetime, several decades after the events portrayed therein -- as was the entire NT (most likely between 45 and 95 AD), and all were circulated throughout the church and acknowledged as being written by the persons with which they were associated in that time period --which is why they were accepted (a few centuries later) into the canon of scripture as authenic, and others were not.

You can obviously site liberal theologians who dispute this, but they are in the minority, and the evidence supports otherwise. I have studied the origins and compilation of both the Old and New Testaments at some length, and am quite satisfied with the Hebrew & Greek manuscripts from which our English translations are derived. Obviously, many others -- mostly non-believing detractors, are not. I acknowledge that we will, unfortunately, not find agreement on this, however.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Furthermore, I perceive that procelytism (i.e.: coercion, manipulation and scare tactics) is evil.

I agree. The gospel cannot be coerced. I've said as much for as long as I can remember. You cannot force someone to believe, and you shouldn't try. Present the gospel plainly, in a non-confrontational manner. If someone is interested, pursue the matter. If not, move on. Jesus said as much, Himself.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Jesus instructed his deciples to go out and tell the world his story, he didn't say anything about telling people they would burn in hell if they didn't go to mass every Sunday.

Yes, Jesus gave no instructions regarding time and place of worship, nor that failure to adhere to a certain schedule would result in damnation. In that respect, you are entirely correct.

However, Jesus did, indeed, preach about hell -- in all four of the gospels. As others (who have spent more time than I have searching such things) have pointed out, Jesus speaks about "hell" more than everyone else in the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) combined. Jesus frequently warned His listeners about hell, and Jesus's descriptions of such are quite frightening -- the Lord did not pull His punches on the subject in the least.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
What happened to the church from the get go

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CAUSAL

Friday, March 17, 2006 12:58 AM

Chris--

Sorry if this has been covered (I just don't have time to read 70 other posts).

So your argument (if I understand it) is:

A) God, as commonly conceived, is all-powerful (P), and all-good(G).
B) If God is, indeed, all-powerful and all-good, then He would not permit the presence of suffering (S) or evil (E) (P&G)->~(SvE)
C) But suffering and evil exist (SvE)
D) Therefore, God (G) does exist (~G)

So your argument looks like this, symbolically:

1 (1) P&G A
2 (2) (P&G)->~(SvE) A
1,2 (3) ~(SvE) 1,2->E
4 (4) Sve A

But your concluding move (at line D above) doesn't follow from your premises (lines A-C). Logically speaking, you are entitled to make the following move as an alternative to D: "Therefore, it is not the case that God is all-powerful and all-good", which would look like this:

.:2,4 (5) ~(P&G) 3,4RAA(1)

This argument does not (and cannot) disprove God's existence. What it can do is call into question His power or goodness, or our conception of suffering or evil, or the assumption that He would not permit them given unlimited power and goodness. But your premises don't treat the subject of God's existence-as-such, so that existence can't be disproven unless you revise your arguments in some way (for instance, start with "If God exists, then He is all-powerful and all-good"). Then you would at least be able to claim formal logical validity for your argument. (for a definition of formal validity go here: http://www.iep.utm.edu/v/val-snd.htm)

To be intelletually responsible, I must hasten to add that the rules of predicate logic disallow the predication of existence. A number of philosophers, Aristotle and Kant among them, agreed in some form with the maxim that existence cannot be predicated of thing. This would jeopardize any argument which predicated existence to some particular.)

But even if existence can be predicated (in which case you would have a formally valid argument) I would dispute the soundness of your argument (see the link above for the definition of logical soundness). I would assert that your understanding of God's goodness and power is flawed, or that you mistake the import of suffering and evil vis-a-vis that power and goodness. Those are, of course, more theological than philosophical, and in light of your desire for logical debate, I shall simply say that I disagree with your conceptions.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

OMEGADARK

Friday, March 17, 2006 3:30 AM

Cartoon

Thank You...

Thank You..

Thank You...

- OD

BURNTHELAND

Friday, March 17, 2006 9:26 AM

This has been a truly thought provoking thread to read and I appreciate the effort and ideas that you all have put forth. I'm not looking to bash or make anyone doubt their own beliefs, in fact I'm just looking for answers (although why I'm looking on a message board for a TV show, however great that show may be, is not entirely clear).

I guess my question has to do with "Why?" If God created humankind, why did he create us with the capability to do such harm to one another?

If he loves us so, and wants us to follow him, why do we kill each other over the manner in which he should be worshipped? And if he is seeing this, why does he allow it to continue?

Why create us with carnal desires that we need to repress in order to live more "holy" lives?

Does God just enjoy watching us struggle? Does he think in order to follow him and understand him that the journey must be difficult or it isn't worth travelling?

I was told once that if I believe in God I must also believe in Satan. I don't know why, but believing in a red man with horns and a tail and carrying a pitchfork, is beyond me. It's like believing in leprechauns or the tooth fairy to me. I guess it's the same deal with Adam and Eve for me. Talking snakes? Huh? I didn't think I was supposed to take these things literally. But apparently I was wrong.

God gave humans a chance by placing them in Eden and then said "Don't eat of the tree of knowledge." Then he gave them free will. Now God is all knowing, surely he knew what man would do. So why even bother with the whole set up? It seems like the reason we are born into the world as sinners, is because that's the way God wanted it.

I seem to have wandered off and forgotten what it was I wanted to talk about.

Cartoon has written some really nice things that have helped me in this thread but I have a problem with the following:

#1) That a sovereign, loving, all-powerful, creator God has made us each with a distinct purpose, and in spite of the fact that we continually rebel against His perfect will for us, has paid an enormous price to forgive our debt so that we could spend eternity in His presence without any pain, sorrow and trouble?

or #2) That it's all up to chance, etc...

The problem with #1 is that I was raised Catholic, and at one point in time thought that I had faith. But now I no longer have that absolute belief, and infact may not believe at all. So if #1 is true, then I know that my questioning God's existence means I get to toil away here on Earth, and although I at least try to be a decent human being and caring to those around me, I don't get to spend eternity in His presence without pain, sorrow, or trouble. So I beat myself up over the issue, and try as I might, can't seem to make myself believe. So my family who are believers will go to Heaven when they die but I will not. Now my family loves me, will it not make them sad that they must spend eternity without me? But there's no sorrow in Heaven. So now I'm angry and confused by living in a universe that follows premise #1.

With premise #2, I live my life in a morally "good" manner simply because it makes life a bit better here in the only existence that I know of. And I don't worry about the cosmic ramifications. And I'm a little bit happier which makes life for those around me a little bit better.

Anyway... I've rambled way too much. I didn't mean to offend or antagonize anyone, and I'm sorry for using "he" instead of "she", or "it", or "He" as the case may be... thanks for any response, I really do want to hear back.

"Mercy is the mark of a great man"

"Guess I'm just a good man"

"Well, I'm alright"

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 17, 2006 2:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by queenofthenorth:

My question to Chrisisall (and anyone who uses this argument) is what makes the suffering of a small child so much more important than the suffering of anyone or anything else?

Your posts are not invisible, and seeing them is always a good thing, Q.
My answer (I would have sooner, but very rushed these days) is simple; We are all on the same level, I just used babies and children on the original post for those that would take that state as relativly 'sin-free'. In truth I sometimes look at elderly folk and get a 'flash' of what they looked like as babies or children- and I sometimes see babies and get that same 'flash' of them as adults and senior citizens. It's a kind of time-travel, I guess, sort of seein' sideways across the time-line for a moment (or just a vivid visual imagination

). Sometimes it brings a tear to my eye, the whole 'invisible' timeless reality we're in....

And since I don't believe that this is our ONLY shot here, it's hard for me to discuss the whole 'last' concept.
The 'Verse, without beginning and without end...

To God, there is no zero Chrisisall

AMITON

Friday, March 17, 2006 2:56 PM

Hey everyone. I personally have been extremely impressed with the level of discussion and intercourse in the recent set of religion threads, and this one in particular. I fancy myself a hobbyist of religious history, and you guys have given a lot of interesting perspectives to study - and stayed mostly civil at that. Cool =p

Anyway...my input. I consider myself as a Christian, and I can go into the whats and whys about that if anyone cares to hear it, but I've just made the decision to accept that path in the last two years. It took me over twenty years to get to the point that I could be comfortable saying that (I'm 33, btw). At least for the first contribution to this thread, I'd like to ask a few questions rather than defend a point of view =)

First, is there any way (in your esteemed opinions), that we can ever *know* what the truth to believe is or which path is the right one? Obviously, there is a decision to believe or not believe, and that evidence is on the table. If you choose to believe, however, how do you know which version is right?

Second, do you believe that the creator (under the assumption that there is one) is ominscient and omnipotent? How does that belief work in the construct of the battle between good and evil?

Third, would you be angry if someone who you considered deeply evil, Hitler for example, was in Heaven (or the positive afterlife of your choosing)?

Thanks for all of the awesome discussion, again!

Amiton.

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 17, 2006 2:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BurnTheLand:

I was told once that if I believe in God I must also believe in Satan. I don't know why, but believing in a red man with horns and a tail and carrying a pitchfork, is beyond me. It's like believing in leprechauns or the tooth fairy to me.

Look at the mythology of Tolkien, one man with a limited number of years, and he came up with a whole world, and it's history.

Jesus- a very cool guy- said some good things about how we should treat eachother as we, ourselves would like to be treated. Then some other guys, fresh off of studying the whole Zeus-Hercules thing, get the idea to expand on Jesus' predilections, but in a more realistic way... no son of God thrashing Hydras; this one just does miracles.

Just find the seeds of truth buryied in the comic-book adventures.

(I fully expect that in a thousand years Bruce Lee will be thought of as some kind of Martial-God, who left Earth at age 32 to find a better challenger in the Heavens than he could here on this world. Stories grow like that.)

Chrisisall, with belief (Why do you always assume...?)

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 17, 2006 3:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:

First, is there any way (in your esteemed opinions), that we can ever *know* what the truth to believe is or which path is the right one?

Try not to think of it in terms of 'right' and 'wrong', we're fluid beings, and so our thoughts will inevitably change and evolve. The path you choose now will lead to the one in your future, and like Herbal says, "It's all good" (Unless you kill in the name of your god...

)

Quote:

Second, do you believe that the creator (under the assumption that there is one) is ominscient and omnipotent? How does that belief work in the construct of the battle between good and evil?

You mean, can he create an object so heavy, he can't lift it?

Good, evil, hot, cold, all degrees of the same thing. Everything is a reflection of everything else. If we were created by a 'creator', then in my view, he popped us out and went on about his other buisness.

Quote:

Third, would you be angry if someone who you considered deeply evil, Hitler for example, was in Heaven (or the positive afterlife of your choosing)?

I cried when Vader saved Luke from the Emperor.
No, I would be happy to see all brought into the light. Drop away the Earthly/corporeal psychosis, and we're all the same- children of and through God.

Make any sense?

Wacky spiritual fun Chrisisall