My case for why there is no conscious, seperate entity such as God (Bible-like God, that is)
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, March 19, 2006 08:14
VIEWED: 18094
PAGE 6 of 11
Quote:You’re welcome, but I think you’ve missed the point.
Originally posted by liminalosity:
Very nice Finn, thanks for the Cicero.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Did I? I did quite like several of his points regarding the futility of the concept hee hee
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
contemplate the measureless and boundless extent of space that stretches in every direction, into which when the mind projects and propels itself, it journeys onward far and wide without ever sighting any margin or ultimate point where it can stop.
Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.
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Quote:Cicero wasn’t an atheist. He was actually a stoic on the matter, though he tended to stray from time to time. What I found interesting about that is that notion of an interfering god. If god exists, do we really want a god who grants our wishes? What strings come attached to those wishes? Will god raise taxes on us to pay for miracles?
Originally posted by liminalosity:
Did I? I did quite like several of his points regarding the futility of the concept hee hee.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Thanks for the reply, and the story, HK.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
"You have not been called here to understand, you have been called here to feel."
About pain; life is pain. It's part of the whole life experience, as essential as sunlight or vitamin-C. I wasn't lookin' to get God to fix our pain as much as to say that Heaven and Hell are right here, right now on this planet and everywhere else. And God's here and everywhere too.
Not a mean old man with a beard judging our souls worthy or unworthy to enter His House, but the living essence of what the universe is made of.
Many like to seperate things; God is outside of me, those people are not like me, there is only the 'right' way, and the 'wrong' way.
The world makes sense if you can simplify it into blacks and whites, or say it's God's will and not mine. (BTW, this thread was my finger's will, and not mine
.) Putting a singular 'face', or personality on God, seperate from ourselves, our planet or the universe was probably the dumbest, most destructive thing ever done by man, IMHO.
But, in my own Quasi-Buddhist way I must say...I could be wrong.
But I don't think so at this moment Chrisisall
P.S., missed you HK
.
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Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
Unless I missed something, and none of the ungrateful wretches managed to make the Friday extension. In that case, they got what they deserved.
Well, that's the thing.
I'm paraphrasing the story (which I haven't heard in years) from memory. I don't know if any had them done by Friday, or not. My impression was that all of those who'd missed Tuesday, had also missed Friday, and were arrogantly expecting even more time. I can't say for certain.Anyhow, as I said before, you're picking out one thing (which I can't reply to, as I don't know the specifics) which really hasn't anything at all to do with the analogy -- that anything given beyond the initial requirement is grace, and not entitlement.
Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
I do think one 'sin' (one act out of balance) does keep me in debt to the universe, but comitting one transgression, which I subsequently make reparations for should not keep me in infinite debt, or what's the point.
The one sin keeps us forever in debt to God because what is the penalty for any sin? Eternal death/separation from God. We can't repay what's not ours to give.
I hate analogies, because none of them are perfect, and there are always holes one can find in them (as you like to) --
but, let me try this...Let's say there's a rule that if you blink your eye, you owe me a billion to the billionth power dollars, which you have to pay before you die. Whether you blink your eye once or a billion times, you still owe that completely unpayable sum.
I don't like that analogy, but I'm trying to express that we can't pay the debt. But, why anyone should worry or fret that we can't pay the debt is beyond my understanding, as God has already paid the debt for us. All we have to do is accept the gift.
I mean, why get our buns twisted up in a knot over the fact that we can't pay off our mortgage, when someone has come and already paid it for us -- all we have to do is accept it and cash the check.
I mean -- it's free. We can't ever pay it, but someone else has. For heaven sakes, stop complaining that we can't pay it and take the stinking check and cash it, already!!
On a side note (if I might be indulged to comment on something said previously by someone else)...
Yesterday, someone mentioned about how low one's self esteem would have to be to be a Christian. I initially replied to that, but something dawned on me just this morning, which I think is also applicable.
Which of the following two belief systems would provoke a better feeling about oneself? And which is more likely to spiral its adherents into deep depression?
#1) That a sovereign, loving, all-powerful, creator God has made us each with a distinct purpose, and in spite of the fact that we continually rebel against His perfect will for us, has paid an enormous price to forgive our debt so that we could spend eternity in His presence without any pain, sorrow and trouble?
or
#2) That we are all accidents of chance that just happened to evolve here, and when we die, that's it. Whether it's five seconds or five millennia, once we're dead, we're going to be forgotten, and even if we aren't forgotten, what difference does it make, because we're all cosmic accidents existing in an accidental universe where there can be no absolutes, because everything is an accident of chance?
Personally, I think the former belief system is far more encouraging than the latter. If anything should make a person feel good about themselves it's that they have a purpose, and that God wants to be with them forever. Seriously, you can't ask (or even imagine) more than that. At least, I can't.
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Quote:Since you're in such a serious mood, Signy, I must tell you about a movie idea I've been working on: These scientists come upon an actual hair from Christ, and attempt to complete the missing genetic material with that of frogs, inadvertantly creating a new Super-Hero!
Originally posted by SignyM:
I attended at Our Lady of Perpetual Bingo.
Jurrasic Jesus!!
Sam Neil Bruce Willis Jessica Alba Jeff Goldblum
in
A Steven Speilberg Movie
Music by Basil Poledouris
Screenplay by Lawrence Kasdan and Chrisisall
Directed by Steven Speilberg
Read the Bantam book
Chrisisall*wakes up...*
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Quote:lol, yeah, doesn't it?
Originally posted by liminalosity:
Yikes, 'Toon, this sounds to me more like an abusive parent who makes everything the fault of the child than a reasonable deity.
Chrisisall
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God is here,
God is real and He created the whole shebang universe, including us (made in His likeness no less.) But of all creation (including angels) we are the only ones with free will. He will come into our lives, but only at our invitaion. I too struggle with the suffering that goes on around me... but I don't lay the blame of it at God's door, but our own; man's. It would be nice if we had a perfect world where there would be no hunger, no injustice, no greed and brutality but... wait. That would be heaven, and Jesus ain't come again. Yet.
tamfaniam
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You know what's funny? the pseudo intellectual cases against God.
God's existence has nothing to do with whether you believe or not, the problem here is that most of you talking about how Christians are self-deprecating A-holes and all that hoo ha are so miss informed that the information they do have is exactly as they say it.
You are the people that read a few passages here or there, maybe your were baptized and confirmed, maybe nothing it all, probably have been to church once or twice, had a bad experience (like you wont have one again) and gave it up because it expected something of you...now you resort to attacking something you have a very minor understanding about and it doesn't matter how much history or background you know because none of what Christianity professes is about history, its about faith and living now...
But, obviously those Christians among us are fools for believing in something like God, we are all depressed ignorant knaves...
While those who want to be controversial bring up subjects that need to be understood while looking at the whole picture, not the individual case... you be believe your life is so important that it should consist of no suffering not realizing the context in which our life is lived.... in a world that contains suffering! Look at God's own Son...(but of course here comes the argument that he didn't come just to live...well then ask yourself, are you? maybe all the suffering you experience is part of what you are here to learn/do)
But, of course the next question is some bitchy complaint about 'WHy, why is there suffering! I pray to God! Therefore he should ease my pain..."(No one said it was going to be easy, especially when you are watching your own child suffer...no one said that wasnt' part of life...times like that require more faith and still might not be your desired outcome...time to buckle down and do everything you can)
Read the lives of some of the saints, you will see that things did not work that way, in fact you will see that suffering is not something viewed the way all of you who complain about suffering think it is....ie. as an evil bad bad thing....
Read some St. John of the Cross or St. Teresa of Avila and educate yourself, you can act like ignorant people the rest of your life and it will still not help...
Just maybe...MAYBE...if you could conjure up some faith and practice the faith and truly try to understand it, you just may discover some peace and truth...
Remember that Jesus said "Blessed is he who believes but as not seen"-- a pill to hard to swallow...but of course I can't USE the bible as a reference...shame I must give you some real world experience...OH! The shame!...
Remember the desire for damnation is based on desire....(oh here comes the bitching next about 'OH, who really wants to go to hell! Wah wah wah..." think about it before you go mouthing off about yet another subject of which you have no understanding about....
Read some Marcus Aurelius (yes he persecuted the Christians but ain't it funny how close his philosophy is to Christian ethics) but of course your going to get caught up in the fact that he persecuted Christians so much so that it will taint anything you might learn...ultimately because you don't want to learn...
You have the naive view that your logic alone is good enough to give you the answers you desire, you're logic will only go so far until it reaches the cliff that requires faith...faith is the bridge that will lead you to the answers you desire...but expecting those here who would rather bitch then search for the answer to get some faith..(and asking questions or spurring on a debate is not a search for answers)...miraculous
Quote:
#1) That a sovereign, loving, all-powerful, creator God has made us each with a distinct purpose, and in spite of the fact that we continually rebel against His perfect will for us, has paid an enormous price to forgive our debt so that we could spend eternity in His presence without any pain, sorrow and trouble?
No! We can't believe
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OmegaDark-
Quote:You seem to create your opinions out of whole cloth. I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school and had catechism as part of the curriculum, attended Mass every day, even sang in the choir (badly). I didn't give up my religion because I had "bad experience" or expected God to take away all pain. I read the stories of the saints, at one time I would have been happy to be part of the clergy. I gave up my religion (which was actually quite comfortable, all things considered) because I started asking questions like What is real and what is a dream? Since all religions claim to have 'the truth' how can I rell which one is right? It was a very unsettling year, but once you realize that you can't even 'prove' reality the whole notion of believing in something that isn't manifest kind of goes down the drain.
You are the people that read a few passages here or there, maybe your were baptized and confirmed, maybe nothing it all, probably have been to church once or twice, had a bad experience (like you wont have one again) and gave it up because it expected something of you...now you resort to attacking something you have a very minor understanding about and it doesn't matter how much history or background you know because none of what Christianity professes is about history, its about faith and living now...you be believe your life is so important that it should consist of no suffering not realizing the context in which our life is lived.... in a world that contains suffering!
You should know that you can't berate someone into faith.
So, tell me- other than not 'burning in hell', why should I believe? I have a philosophy that says the Universe is as it is, and suffering and grief is part of it. Despite my lack of faith, I still expect quite a bit of myself, since I have an ethic that says we should love one another and understand ourselves. When I'm disappointed, I'm disapointed in people. I don't need to rationalize to myself (and others) why this God who loves us all seems to want to rather capriciously plunk us into eternal damantion or eternal gratitude for being as we were created to be.
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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