Real World Event Discussions

Why terrorists will ultimately fail...

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 26, 2026 00:13
VIEWED: 9344
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DREAMTROVE

Thursday, March 16, 2006 3:47 AM

Quote:
The total figure for civilian deaths caused by military action of the US and its allies is a number just under ten thousand I believe

And you are free to do so. Of course that means that you are not on the same page as reality. Pirate News is much closer with his 1.6 million figure. I've done a lot of figureing, and I keep coming up about 1/2 of PN's number 800,000 or 900,000. In Bush's defense, most of those are not his, but he will be very lucky is his own total is only tens of thousands. I strongly suspect it will be hundreds of thousands. Of course, all of this is potentially dwarfed by the pending civil war, which could claim a toll in millions.

Part of why those of us who oppose the war do so is that we are in touch with reality, which, to put it in other words, means: We're pessimists.

The only problem with cynics is that they're right nine times our of ten.

GINOBIFFARONI

Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
The total figure for civilian deaths caused by military action of the US and its allies is a number just under ten thousand I believe

And you are free to do so. Of course that means that you are not on the same page as reality. Pirate News is much closer with his 1.6 million figure. I've done a lot of figureing, and I keep coming up about 1/2 of PN's number 800,000 or 900,000. In Bush's defense, most of those are not his, but he will be very lucky is his own total is only tens of thousands. I strongly suspect it will be hundreds of thousands. Of course, all of this is potentially dwarfed by the pending civil war, which could claim a toll in millions.

Part of why those of us who oppose the war do so is that we are in touch with reality, which, to put it in other words, means: We're pessimists.

The only problem with cynics is that they're right nine times our of ten.

You could also include the death toll caused by the sanctions against Iraq for the WMD that they didn't have.....

I'd have to go looking for a figure, but I seem to remember a UN stat from 1998 saying over 750,000 kids under 16...

And as the US and Britain were the only ones who wanted to keep the sanctions.... I'd say they own that.

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 16, 2006 6:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is a must-see clip. This woman is brave.
http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1050#

Their time is past, and the tail is stil thashing about.

Chrisisall in the 21st

It was argued by some before the war that a war in Iraq would force a rethinking of Arab values. I didn't believe them at the time, but lately I’ve been coming around to this idea. Although personally, I never thought and still don’t think that terrorists could ever ultimately succeed without the consent of the West. But this is good news and it suggests that the Arab world may be slowly opening the gates they closed in the 14th century.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, March 16, 2006 6:25 AM

Quote:
You could also include the death toll caused by the sanctions against Iraq for the WMD that they didn't have.....

Oh, I did. I don't think it's that high, it's between 500 and 600K. Clinton is an evil bastard. I'm not sure yet that Bush is an evil bastard, he might just be an incompetent moron. Also, the first Gulf war. But it's not just us, I think Saddam gets some credit, but still, you can't blame the wolf for being a wolf, at some point you have to take responsiblity for the fact that you locked it in the hen house.

For this war, I think honestly, the 30K figure is low, and while I think the 150K figure is high, it's likely to be somewhere in between the two.

I guess, objectively, not as bad as Clinton or Kerry is really damning with faith praise. To the extent Bush is Clinton, he's as bad, to the extent he's a republican, he's nto as bad, and on the budget, for whatever reason, he's clearly worse, as in - look at the budget - but even and average of 'better than Clinton' is not enough - I'm not grading on a curve.

Clearly there are many things worse than having Bush as president. For instance, we could have Osama Bin Laden as president, or even school building contractor. Or Al Zarqawi roaming about telling the democrats and republicans to bomb each others houses and places of work. Or we could have any of a number of presidents of other countries such as Kim Jong Il, Thabo Mbeki, Vladimir Putin or Robert Mugabe. Or anyone from Hamas. We could be the new Bolivarian Socialist Republican of America.

But again, this isn't the contest at hand. My objections to Bush come from "he's not better than any random republican senator" I think even someone from Bush's corner of the political spectrum, there are a number of people who do be far better. I'd be completely up for putting all 55 names in a hat and drawing a new Prez and VP.

What I'm really dreading is the new Hillary admin. This is a woman who has essentially already promised us a war to conquer Iran and install a new govt. This will be potentially harder than Vietnam, because Iran will have not just China backing it up, but also Russia. It'll be pretty easy for the Hillster to spend a trillion dollars killing a million people and failing to take Iran.

PIRATENEWS

Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:54 AM

IDENTIFY FRIEND OR FOE (IFF)

Quote:
Quote:
Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?"

Jewish Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it."

-60 Minutes, 5/12/96, Extra! "We Think the Price Is Worth It," by Rahul Mahajan, November/December 2001
www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084

Jewish "President Clinton was born William Jefferson Blythe III."
www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/bc42.html

USA nuked Iraq with dose-equivalent of 400,000 Hiroshima A-bombs. "Depleted" uranium is radioactive for 35-billion years and emits gamma rays, x-rays, beta particles and killer alpha particles:
www.traprockpeace.org/depleteduranium.html

Pentagon has already nuked USA with 1,050 A-bombs:
www.HistoryChannel.com

50,000 US troops killed in 15-year Iraq War
500,000 US troops are paid disablity from Gulf War
www.GulfWarVets.com

7,000 Americans genocided EVERY DAY in Death Camps in USA today:
www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_01.htm

Commander In Chief Radio #17
"POWs from 45 nations incarcerated in Gitmo"
by Skidmark Bob
Pirate Radio Santa Cruz
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8939.php
www.freakradio.org

Free Peace MP3s
www.benfrank.net/nuke/Free_Peace_mp3s.html

www.police-state.net

"The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it. I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons. I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders' rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations."
-USAma Bin Laden (CIA code name Jew Tim OSSman when in California buying SAMS from CIA), business partner with Bush family since 1947, brother Salem Bin Laden was George Bush Jr's first business partner in Arbusto Oil in Texas, his other brother Shafig Bin Laden was dining with Sir George Bush Sr Knight of the British Empire and Carlyle Group (owner of Serenity) on 9/11/2001 in Washinton DC, CNN, "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks," September 17, 2001
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

"I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other human beings as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people."
-Usama Bin Laden, Ummat magazine, September 28, 2001

"It's easy to imagine an infinite number of situations where the government might legitimately give out false information. It's an unfortunate reality that the issuance of incomplete information and even misinformation by government may sometimes be perceived as necessary to protect vital interests."
—US Solicitor-General Theodore "Ted" Olson, in Jennifer K. Harbury vs. United States, at the US Supreme Court, on 17 March 2002 (his wife Barabara Olson, attoney at law and CNN talkinghead disappeared on September 11, 2001, allegedly on American Airlines Flight 77 that never hit the Pentagon)

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media."
-William Colby, Director CIA, assassinated 60,000 people via CIA Death Squads in Vietnam Wars with Phoenix Project ("drowned" in a suspicious "canoe crash" while cooking dinner in Washington DC)

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Bush Sued by RICO Act - 9/11 victims sue Bush Gang under RICO Act for perping domestic terrorism and mass murder on 9/11/2001. Stanley Hilton vs traitorous media whores Shaun Hannity and Alan Colmes for Jewish Australian porno king pimp daddy Rupert Murdock on Faux News.
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7209.ph

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KPO

Thursday, March 16, 2006 5:26 PM

Quote:
Of course that means that you are not on the same page as reality. Pirate News is much closer with his 1.6 million figure. I've done a lot of figureing, and I keep coming up about 1/2 of PN's number 800,000 or 900,000.

I got my figures from Iraq body count - an anti war movement not some official US governmental source. Are you sure you are not quoting overall death figures, including those from natural causes? Some reports cite these to show that the overall death rate has gone up - ie. iraq is less stable now and people are suffering for lack of basic ammenities.

True enough, unfortunate circumstance will lead to high death rates. But my point remains; who do you blame for the civilian deaths from the current instability, the radical elements of arab/iraqi society who are causing it or the americans who are failing to prevent it? I'm not trying to plead the innocence of the US I just think people should give blame where it's due.

Quote:
Part of why those of us who oppose the war do so is that we are in touch with reality

You're assuming that I support the war in Iraq. Huh.

CARTOON

Thursday, March 16, 2006 5:38 PM

Well, regardless of what people in here may say and think about America, it's still the one place in the world that everyone else is trying to get into so they can live the best life imaginable on earth.

How many people do you see wanting to go live in Iran, Syria, or Saudi Arabia because it affords them the best chance to make something of themselves and live their lives freely?

Ask the women of Saudi Arabia (if you can get them to talk to you at all, much less on the record) if they can live more freely there or here in the U.S.?

And there's no amount of political rhetoric or insane conspiratorial theories which can speak as loudly (or as profoundly) as the vast numbers of people trying to get into the U.S. on a daily basis.

We don't have to build walls to keep our citizens in. People are fighting to get in, not out. So there must be something here they want, which they can't find elsewhere.

CHRISMOORHEAD

Thursday, March 16, 2006 5:51 PM

PirateNews, are you male or female? Cause I think I'm in love with you.

While I may not agree totally with the Bush bashing, it seems in your case it's directed at the current major evil and the position he occupies, and not just at the man himself. That's a good thing. We need more people like you constantly questioning any and everything they can. Governments of all types commit absolutely heinous crimes that the average person doesn't have the resources to commit and it is imperative that people draw attention to it, no matter what political party, no matter what great causes they support, we must NEVER stop questioning.

God bless you, patriot.

Have you ever:
Used your teeth as wire strippers?
Given yourself stitches?
Made improvised munitions with no base supplies?
Pissed in a canteen?
Gone a month without bathing?

If so, you MIGHT just be a !HOOAH MOTHERF*CKER!

DREAMTROVE

Friday, March 17, 2006 5:04 AM

Quote:
I got my figures from Iraq body count - an anti war movement not some official US governmental source.

I'm not off in paranoia city, but I'm not sure this is true. I think that the Iraq Body Count, though it started as an anti-war group, is not an official US govt. source. The govt uses it, Bush himself has used their figures. I think their estimates are seriously low by any serious attempt at a realistic projection.

Quote:
Are you sure you are not quoting overall death figures, including those from natural causes? Some reports cite these to show that the overall death rate has gone up - ie. iraq is less stable now and people are suffering for lack of basic ammenities.

I don't get the difference. Civilian casualities are those people who died because there was a war on (started by us) among those who were not enemy combatants. Since very few of the dead, percentagewise, were actually enrolled in any of the insurgent enterprises attempting to overtake Iraq, viturally everyone is a civillian casualty. If a guy throws stones at americans, that doesn't make him an insurgent in Iraq anymore than it makes someone a militant in Palestine. Most of the deaths probably come form our bombing of overcrowded neighborhoods in arial attacks on cities.

Quote:
True enough, unfortunate circumstance will lead to high death rates. But my point remains; who do you blame for the civilian deaths from the current instability, the radical elements of arab/iraqi society who are causing it or the americans who are failing to prevent it? I'm not trying to plead the innocence of the US I just think people should give blame where it's due.

Oh, that's extremely easy. I blame Bush, there's no one else to blame. The Iraqis are doing the only sane thing they can: resisting a foreign occupation which is attempting to radically alter their society in its favor. (Which we are trying to do) Any red blooded American would do the same thing if we were invaded by some foreign power which sought to 'correct' our society. The Soviets as I recall once suggested that if they ruled America they would correct our economic inequality by forcing universal govt. employment and eliminating non-employment related wealth. I remember the speech, it was maybe andrepov? Anyway, sure, but if they tried, do you honestly think no one in America would have resisted that effort to 'help' us?

Quote:
You're assuming that I support the war in Iraq. Huh.

I wasn't sure. Your low numbers were probably feeding that idea. I don't think those figures are realistic given what's going on in Iraq. The importance of accurate numbers is that the arument to some extent hinges on the numbers. If Saddam remained in power, there would be a certian amount of death and destruction. I think at this point the argument that Saddam would have been worse than US is beyond absurd, and it's probable that we've killed more people than Saddam would have done between now and his death. But if you lowball the estimate too much, you might end up under that figure.

The govt. seeks to lowball estimates for obvous reasons. Death doesn't have a lot of fans (outside of the democratic party

<- just a reference to right to die, etc.) but seriously, I think the greatest lowball estimates recently came out of Katrina. What I heard from the inside was estimates of 25-40K dead, with the lions share of that coming from a relatively unrecorded vagrant regional homeless population. Now even if that's high or alarmist, it's still way off base from the official 3Kish figure of dead and missing. It's more like mini-tsunami. But that would make the total bungling of FEMA even worse.

It's hard when you have to always guess at the truth.

DREAMTROVE

Friday, March 17, 2006 5:09 AM

Quote:
Well, regardless of what people in here may say and think about America

PN has his reasons, and it's fair, he's not speaking from a random anti-american position. I really encourage you, go to his website, read about this stuff. He's really coming from an insiders prospective, not by any means a hate-america one. His position, and PN, please, correct me if I'm wrong, is that the fed govt. has betrayed America. I think he's really strongly pro-American.