Real World Event Discussions

My case for why there is no conscious, seperate entity such as God (Bible-like God, that is)

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, March 19, 2006 08:14
VIEWED: 18094
PAGE 5 of 11

CARTOON

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You invited the comparison when you posed the question: How would YOU feel if these "less than nothings" rebelled and quite frankly, if I were God and I had invested these less than nothing with free will I prolly wouldn't care.

I know.

I didn't want to phrase it that way, but how else does one draw a comparison as to how far above us God is? Actually, He's even further above us than that. Actually, we can't even fathom a comparison as He is all-knowing, all-powerful, ever-was/ever-will-be, ever present, etc.

And the microbe (or whatever I said) comparison also doesn't work in that God loves us. We don't love microbes. Even in the face of our unimaginable rebellion, He loves us. He could've just wiped the slate clean and started over, and none of the angels (or whoever else was around in the heavenly realms) would've blinked an eye (*see below).

He obviously cares for us beyond anything we can comprehend. Because of His holiness, He couldn't overlook what we did, but because of His love, He made a way out -- and not a "cheap" way out. The way out cost Him more than any of us can imagine.

It was a bad comparison on my part, and I apologize. I just couldn't think of anything else to show the scope of the difference.

If it left you with a wrongful impression, please forgive me. I knew it wasn't quite right when I posted it.

*SIDE NOTE: Speaking of Angels, according to the scripture, even they are somewhat confused by the fact that God cares so much about us, His sinful, rebellious creation.

Okay, well, perhaps "confusion" isn't the correct word, but they don't seem to understand it fully, and are (at the very least) curious about it. I Peter 1:12 speaks of Angels desiring to look into these "things" -- referring (in verses 10-12) to the saving work of Christ -- which had beforehand been spoken of by the prophets, then the preaching of the gospel, etc.

Being in the presence of a perfect, holy, all-powerful, all-knowing God all the time as they are, I'm sure they can't imagine why He would want to save any of us. Personally, I can't imagine it, either, and I don't think I will ever understand it.

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:26 PM

My case goes along the lines of:

God creates man in his own image, but sinful, lacking in understanding and without half of his abilities. To me that seems the equivalent of manking going out and intentionally creating a race of cripples. I can't believe in a guy who creates an entire universe just to be better than everyone else.

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HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:27 PM

Heya Chris,

Thanks for the topic (finally, something pulls me out of Lurksville, back to chatting with my Firefly Friends).

First of all: what a mess! I'm not sure but from reading some of the responses you've gotten here, it seems that in order to be a devout christian a person needs to harbor a profound self-hatred, a deeply ingrained sense of personal shame. Low self-esteem can really ruin a logical discussion because low self-esteem and depression can make some of the most distorted nonsense seem like the plain facts. God loves us, but we are nothing without Him. So God loves nothing, or he loves only Himself--what kinda love is that? How does one love nothing, exactly? Sounds like your "pillar-of-salt" kind of love.

Another major impediment to clarity in this thread is the obsession with pain. As a student of martial arts, you gotta know that pain is a perfectly natural and very necessary part of life. Without pain there can be no healing and no growth. So the fact that innocent children and blameless animals experience all kinds of pain is really not a moral issue at all. Welcome to life in three dimensions.

Jumping Jimminy, grow up people! Contrary to popular belief, it's not loving to take pain away, I'm not at all sure it's even possible (the closest thing we got to genuinely taking pain away is the empathic trick of taking another's pain into one's self, but half the people reading this don't even believe that kind of empathy exists).

We can mask pain, that's for sure. Deny pain, tell our children not to cry. And I believe the individual can, with patience, transform it into meaning. Loved ones can hold it, help us to bear it by taking on some of the pain themselves, but take it away? Presto change-o, no fuss/no muss?

Naw. Bear it is what we gotta do with pain, Chris. Get to know it. Learn what we can. But people can be very childish. Our parents can spend their whole lives trying--and failing--to take our pain away, and we can hate them for their failure. We can go through life looking for something to "take the pain away," but that only leads us into addiction. People even take this addictive impulse and apply it to the divine, demanding that God take their pain away--and the religion addicts actually think they succeed!

Yeah, what a mess.

I got a story for you that a friend of mine told me. He was not a religious man (he was culturally Jewish). He was a stand-up comedian I was working on a movie with at the time. He told me the story about the one time in his life that he saw an angel.

He was visiting his niece in the hospital. She was a newborn. She was born without the bottom half of her face. He told me of how he held that baby for hours, looking into her beautiful, beautiful eyes over her half-made face with tubes running into her body and he wept and asked God, "Why God? Why bring this beautiful little girl into the world like this?"

And he told me an angel appeared in the room and said to him, in the kindest most beautiful voice he'd ever heard, "You have not been called here to understand, you have been called here to feel."

You're quite right, Chris, if God's plan could be described in the crude language people fling about--speaking confidently (even a little pridefully) about sinfulness and disobeying God and justice and punishment, etc.--don't you think God's plan could have been completed by now? If God's plan were reducible to this tired, infinitely reframed debate, couldn't the will of God be accomplished in a few weeks, like some high-powered management seminar?

Obviously, God's got big plans, bigger fish to fry than spanking our insignificantly naughty butts.

So there's a project, a plan to create something that heretofore has never existed. In order to create this "something" God created three dimensions, matter and linear time.

I've had three dimensions explained to me as a laboratory. Matter and linear time and, therefore, free will are all conditions of the experiment. You get rid of any of them a

SIGNYM

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:49 PM

So He loves us but He's mad at us. Sounds quite human!

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Free as in freedom, not beer.

CARTOON

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:59 PM

Hi. I actually liked your bit about "pain".

Uh, I know that sounds kind of weird. And, no, I'm not a masochist or anything (although, I can understand how some people might think that I am -- actually coming into a sci-fi chat room to discuss the Bible and things)...

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
First of all: what a mess! I'm not sure but from reading some of the responses you've gotten here, it seems that in order to be a devout christian a person needs to harbor a profound self-hatred, a deeply ingrained sense of personal shame. Low self-esteem can really ruin a logical discussion because low self-esteem and depression can make some of the most distorted nonsense seem like the plain facts.

Actually, if you were referring to my previous posts, knowing that God loves us should do just the opposite than cause us to harbor "profound self-hatred", etc. I mean, who wouldn't feel "great" that the eternal, creator God personally loves them?

And we don't have to have low self-esteem or hate ourselves to approach God. We do need to realize that (as He said) we have wronged Him, admit it to Him, and gratefully hold our hand out to accept the free gift. How does that invoke depression?

I feel I've either somehow inadequately represented the Christian view, or you've misinterpreted my efforts at expressing it. Either way, I hope you won't think that those who believe the Bible are a bunch of self-hating party-poopers (well, except maybe for the prophet Jeremiah -- but then we should cut him some slack because he had a really bad time).

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:37 AM

HK- Rue and I were just communicating (off-board) how much we missed your deep intuition, your essential grasp of the meaning of things.

I have often mulled over our daughter and of all the kids I've come to know who were born with various intractable, painful, debilitating, or terminal problems. Not being religious, I'm not "mad at God" as so many parents are. But if there is any meaning to the pain and suffering of children, I think it's not to "punish" us, or to "test our faith" but to make us see what we are about as human beings and as a society.

And what I see are parents of "normal" children resenting resources being "wasted" on children who will "never be productive". I see a society that wants everyone to be a positive mark on the ledger; a society so consumed by fear and uncertainty that it can no longer "afford" compassion.

If this is a test by God, then we are failing miserably. If this is an indication of our intelligence- one that might create and take responsibility for our creations- then we're stupider than a dog's hind leg.

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Free as in freedom, not beer.

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 16, 2006 5:23 AM

Quote:
Let's see, if I were God, all lonely in my own existence, and wanting someone to play with...
Maybe I'll make a friend.
No, I can't make my own equal to play with, that would make me all-powerful times two, then I would not be all-powerful...so... I'll make me a world of lesser beings, all stupid and such, and I'll make a Devil to plague them with bad feelings and dis-information...and I'll demand they come to the truth that I'm here...'cept I'll hide, heh heh.
But I'll love them. Yessireee. Even when I flood them, I'll love them.
Tough-love.
Pillar-of-salt love.

bingo!

I attended at Our Lady of Perpetual Bingo.

LIMINALOSITY

Thursday, March 16, 2006 5:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris: I was only being the instrument of the most high. - Herbal on Dark Angel
Lim, you remember my reincarnation story, I'm touched. Now I HAVE to check out this book.
I guess it was dumb of me to start a thread like this and ask for 'logical' discussion, 'eh?

Herbal is the only one who thinks Herbal is mos' high, everybody else knows he's just the man.

I always remember reincarnation stories, they usually say something about the relative age of the person doing the remembering, imo, and yours had some detail to it, as did Signy's. Costumes give big clues to when and where, specifically, this might have been, especially footwear, which will give clues to social standing etc. Try turning your vision of the Chinese soldier into a movie, you can sometimes learn a lot if you can get the image to move.Years of Rice and Salt I think you will enjoy very much.
Everybody has their logic for why their way is the right way, yeah? Who was it said 'there is no one way, this is my way, what is yours?'

and BTW

Quote:
originally posted by a stand up comic: Pillar-of-Salt Love
Quote:
ROFLMAO, you made my night with that one. Now on to pester 'Toon some more...

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

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LIMINALOSITY

Thursday, March 16, 2006 5:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:At any rate, all the students who initially had their papers done by Tuesday wouldn't have had to worry, as they had completed the task as instructed. The only ones punished were the ones who had not, then presumed upon the grace. Did a few of the students who didn't have their papers on Tuesday, but did have them for Friday, suffer as a result? I don't know. Sproul never said if that was applicable in this instance.
'Toon said: ....Friday came around. Sproul calls the roll. Several students blurt out (no longer sheepishly, but very matter-of-factly) that they haven't completed their papers. Sproul begins reading the names of the students who haven't completed their papers: "Smith, no paper - F. Summers, no paper - F. Thomas, no paper - F."

At which time, one of the students yells out, "That's not fair!"

Sproul retorts, "You want fair? I'll give you fair. Everyone who didn't have their paper completed on Tuesday - F."

This is the bit in your original argument I was objecting to - one student blurts out 'that's not fair, and Sproul punishes all students who didn't have their papers in on Tuesday. It seems to me that the students who had their papers in on Friday might well have been very thankful for the grace of Sproul, but when he flunked them for the transgression of the single student who is unappreciative of the extension (says "it's not fair" to be flunked for not having finished the paper in time to make the Friday extended deadline), Sproul has acted cruelly, and I would say evilly. Better for Sproul not to have offered the extension than to have punished those who were grateful for the grace of the extension, and had there papers completed in time for the Friday extension. I hope that's clearer. Unless I missed something, and none of the ungrateful wretches managed to make the Friday extension. In that case, they got what they deserved. I think teachers should stick to their guns on deadlines; giving post deadline extensions to those who can't manage to get the assignment done on time, punishes those who have made the effort to do the thing as expected. But that's just my personal scales.

Someone needing an extension should make arrangements in advance for the extension, or it's disrespectful to the teacher, the other students and ultimately themselves. Allegorically speaking, I see the golden rule as having two sides, I think the other side goes something like 'don't do to others what you wouldn't want them to do for you. Compassion includes a keen but kind honesty in your dealings with others.

Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
I think I have until forever to balance the scales.

According to the scriptures, we can't ever balance the scales. That's the thing. God says one sin forever puts us in His debt. Even if it were possible for us to be "perfect" (which it isn't) from now until eternity, and even if we had only sinned once (which none of us has), we are still objects of His wrath apart from receiving His grace. There are no scales.

Yikes, 'Toon, this sounds to me more like an abusive parent who makes everything the fault of the child than a reasonable deity. Where is it that this God shows the agape for his folk that he expects to see from them? I do think one 'sin' (one act out of balance) does keep me in debt to the universe, but comitting one transgression, which I subsequently make reparations for should not keep me in infinite debt, or what's the point. I may just as well let the beast out if nothing I do can get me out of debt, and I'll burn no matter how good I am. (Don't worry, I won't really let the beast out... permanently.)

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

LIMINALOSITY

Thursday, March 16, 2006 5:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
...pain is a perfectly natural and very necessary part of life. Without pain there can be no healing and no growth.

Contrary to popular belief, it's not loving to take pain away, I'm not at all sure it's even possible (the closest thing we got to genuinely taking pain away is the empathic trick of taking another's pain into one's self, but half the people reading this don't even believe that kind of empathy exists).

Naw. Bear it is what we gotta do with pain, Chris. Get to know it. Learn what we can.

HEY! HK! Welcome back, I've missed your insight also. I would say that without emotion there can be no growth. Moving through pain and transforming it into wisdom is maybe the most common of the ways we grow. It's also possible to learn from joy and ecstacy, but maybe less likely, because we forget to let go of those things, forget to let them lie on our open palm, and in the grasping it's easy to lose the lesson.

The trick with empathic healing is to move the other's pain through oneself, not just take it into oneself.

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.