My case for why there is no conscious, seperate entity such as God (Bible-like God, that is)
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, March 19, 2006 08:14
VIEWED: 18094
PAGE 4 of 11
Quote:Please provide some examples with links to support them, if you would please.
Originally posted by Jonus:
God will step in if things get too f'ed up.
He's bad, he's bad, he's really really bad Chrisisall
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Quote:You got it wrong, Rue, God doesn't make an infant suffer, He lets an infant suffer with the ability to easily change the situation.
Originally posted by rue:
So why would god make an infant suffer horribly and inevitbaly die in order to teach an adult a lesson?
There's a WORLD of difference there (the fact that I can't actually SEE the difference doesn't automatically mean there isn't one...um...right?).
You get the lesson now?
Chrisisall, the laughing Buddha
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Okay, just gotta pop in and make a few points here, Chrisisall, even though I'm not Christian or anything.
1. It seems from your first post that you're making the case that a child's life is more valuable than any other life on the planet. Which is pretty shaky ground to start an argument on, logically and morally. That's just my opinion, of course.
2. God's big thing, from my understanding, is that he wants us to believe without knowing. So if he was to intervene and keep all babies from suffering, dying, or being deformed until they reach the age of 18 (or whatever age when their life becomes less valuable), then people are going to start to notice. They're going to go, hey, there is a God, and we know because of all this stuff. Therefore, they will know that there is a God, rather than believing in God, which defeats God's own purpose, right? So He's probably not going to go ahead and do that.
3. A lot of the death and suffering that happens to babies occurs as a result of what people do. You know, drunk drivers killing children in vehicles, parents beating their kids, etc. Is any of this God's doing? No, it's ours, our choice. And if He intervened, He'd be taking away our free will. Which is one of those big gifts that He granted us. So, if He were to take away our free will, He'd be defeating His own purpose again, which seems kind of dumb, doesn't it?
4. To the person who said that God might be punishing people who hadn't sinned, there's no such thing as a person who hasn't sinned. Just those who might have sinned less than others.
There. Those are my logical points to make. Finally, CIA, haven't you seen Futurama? God has to use a light touch, like a pickpocket, safecracker, or a guy who burns down his bar for the insurance money (if he makes it look like an electrical thing). 
"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."
"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."
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Quote:
Originally posted by aussay:
If Christ died for the sins of the world, then why are we being punishied via catastrophes and death? If we are being punished for our sins like that then Christs death was pointless
When mankind rebelled in the garden, God cursed #1) the devil (whose downfall at the hand of the Messiah was also prophesied there)(Gen. 3:14-15), #2) mankind and the earth (including everything on it)(Genesis 3:16-19).
Jesus's work on the cross did several things. For one thing, it was the deathblow to the devil's plans to take all of mankind into hell with him -- in that Jesus lifted the curse of eternal separation from God from those who freely receive His grace.
The curse on the earth hasn't been lifted by Christ's work on the cross, nor have the earthly consequences of mankind's sins (even those who are redeemed). (eg. If you destroy your liver through a lifetime of drunkeness, then receive the Lord's salvation -- the Lord will have indeed saved your soul, but you're still going to have that diseased liver. There are consequences to living in a fallen, sinful world which will not be escaped in this lifetime.)
When the Lord returns, He will lift the curse from the world, but until then, sin (and the curse for sin) still has reign over creation.
Quote:
Originally posted by aussay:
Secondly, say god is punishing sin by hurt and pain to the world. People doing sins are not neccessarily getting punished and other who may not have sinned are getting punished. That is imperfect justice and if god is perfect how can he deliver imperfect justice?
That's just it -- it's not justice (imperfect or otherwise) -- or (as I said above) we'd all be in the toilet. Our tendancy is to look at it from a human perspective, where we compare ourselves to each other. As I said above, God isn't doing that -- He's comparing us to Him. And even one sin puts us under the curse. Therefore, if we sin once or a billion times, we are under God's curse, and therefore, have no right to complain about why the neighbors seem to be getting off easier than we are. In God's eyes, we both deserve the penalty of sin, and the fact that God may let Joe Smith off with a few decades more of the good life than us isn't going to matter a speck in the whole of eternity. A lifetime of 80 years (when compared to eternity) wouldn't even be comparable to the tiniest subatomic particle to the vastness of the entire universe.
The Lord doesn't balance His books every Friday at five. But they will be balanced. It's not for us to look at others and wonder why they have it better or worse than us. We are accountable for what we do -- not the neighbors.
P.S. (This next bit isn't referring to you at all, aussay, but I feel that this might be a good place for me to mention it for the sake of certain others in this forum. I hope you don't mind.)
As I've mentioned somewhere in one of these threads -- as a believer I am commanded (when asked) to present the gospel of the Lord as best I can. I am also commanded to move on when that gospel is blatantly rejected.
As such, for those who may've missed that point, I will not respond to (or even read) the posts of anyone who blasphemes the Lord or blatantly rejects the presentation of His gospel. People with honest questions, misunderstandings, etc. are fine, but I am under no obligation to beat against the wind with an unbeliever who has no desire to seek the Lord, and merely wants to be confrontational, blasphemous and crude.
I have never resorted to calling anyone in these forums by any derogatory terms (well, except for myself, where I clearly acknowledge many of my multitudinous faults), nor have I even resorted to labeling their comments as "stupid" or "foolish" (even though, as far as I can ascertain in my admittedly limited grasp of human understanding, many of them haven't even the least semblance of rational thought even remotely associated with them).
I've learned a lo
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Please provide some examples with links to support them, if you would please.
Originally posted by Jonus:
God will step in if things get too f'ed up.
He's bad, he's bad, he's really really bad Chrisisall
Looks like we have an attention whore in our midst.
Well there's a couple examples in the Bible: Sodom and Gamora (sp?) where people were having orgies or something and God opened a can of whoopass and The Flood. The world became too evil so He stepped in and flooded it. Noah made God promise He wouldn't do some shit like that again. And then there's Revelations where at the end of the world when things are at their worst Jesus will come back and save the believers, make the nonbelievers believe and make the sinners repent. There's a site I like that makes sense of all the things that are confusing in the Bible
http://bible-truths.com/
I'm a Jedi.
I'm a Ringer.
I'm a BROWNCOAT.
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Quote:
Originally posted by queenofthenorth:
4. To the person who said that God might be punishing people who hadn't sinned, there's no such thing as a person who hasn't sinned. Just those who might have sinned less than others.
Queen, you've said it far better (and in much fewer words) than I could've.
Didn't I warn you about avoiding this place, though? Nevermind. As long as you're here, "hi".
Don't stand too close, though, unless you have an uncanny ability to dodge quickly-moving projectiles.
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Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Didn't I warn you about avoiding this place, though? Nevermind. As long as you're here, "hi".
Don't stand too close, though, unless you have an uncanny ability to dodge quickly-moving projectiles.
Well, you know me. I couldn't resist the makings of a good argument. And few things are more fascinating than a philosophical argument about God.
As for the projectiles, well, I'd say I'm a fair hand at dodging.
"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."
"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."
Like books? Go to this thread: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=14862
to find out how to buy mine!
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Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
In punishing everyone for the outburst of a single student, your allegorical hand of God is pulling another sleight of hand.
Just noticed this, and I missed responding to it, previously. I'm fairly sure that Sproul wasn't making an allegory in which he (Sproul) was acting like God. I believe the point he was trying to make is that we often take grace for granted and demand it, when we don't deserve grace in the first place (that's the whole nature of grace -- it's wholly unmerited and unearned).
Sproul was saying that we also have a tendency to complain that God is treating us unfairly, and the last thing we want from God is "fair" -- as God said that the punishment for sin (one or a billion sins of any nature) is eternal separation from Him in a particularly unpleasant place. Our receiving anything short of that punishment is "grace", and certainly cannot be construed as unfair.
Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:Quote:I'd say, yeah. He reneged on his generous and graceful offer of extension for the other students by punishing everyone for the transgression of the one student who didn't appreciate his 'grace'.
Was Sproul being evil?
Well, I disagree here. And it wasn't just one student. All of the students who didn't have their papers on time were now "expecting" leniency yet again. (Perhaps I didn't relate that in my retelling of his story.) At any rate, all the students who initially had their papers done by Tuesday wouldn't have had to worry, as they had completed the task as instructed. The only ones punished were the ones who had not, then presumed upon the grace. Did a few of the students who didn't have their papers on Tuesday, but did have them for Friday, suffer as a result? I don't know. Sproul never said if that was applicable in this instance.
Quote:
Originally posted by liminalosity:
I think I have until forever to balance the scales.
According to the scriptures, we can't ever balance the scales. That's the thing. God says one sin forever puts us in His debt. Even if it were possible for us to be "perfect" (which it isn't) from now until eternity, and even if we had only sinned once (which none of us has), we are still objects of His wrath apart from receiving His grace. There are no scales.
Oops. Have to get back to work, or a bunch of students will have no way home.
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Quote:Wow. You have GOT to get a clue!
God does not make 'sick' or disabled children.
Visit this website, roam around, read the stories, then come back and tell me about it:Quote:http://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/showthread.php?t=123726
I feel so sick to my stomach right now, I am SO afraid I'm going to lose her very soon! I KEEP Praying for God to help her, WHY won't he help her??! Okay, maybe he's helping her by keeping her with me still, but I have been Praying for 8 months for him to help her brain and make it grow, then he ALLOWS 5 months to go by with NO gorwth, that makes me sick! WHy won't he help her, just a little bit? Why wo't he wake her up??! If she has to be SOOO freakin severe, and have a short life, why is he making her SUFFER with these things the docs are calling autonomic storms.. where she is arching, breathing hard, sweating buckets, fever and heartrate-through the roof... WHY?! This is my precious baby girl, she is the most beautiful amazing, sweet baby love I have ever seen, I can't even think about her not staying with me.. WHY do I have to think about her not staying with me?!!
Quote:So... the child who has a random genetic mutation is born that way because of someone else's sin? That doesn't make sense. And please, none of that "We can't possibly fanthom blah blah blah..."
God is not a master puppeteer. Sin causes many of the worlds problems due to mans disobedience to Gods will.
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Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Cartoon- I "get" that stacked up against God's holiness we are less than microbes with a bad attitude and that we DESERVE eternal damnation. That everything bad that ever happens on this Earth- from deformed babies to animals preying on each other instead of living peaceably- is due to original sin. And yet I can't help thinking that this massive temper that God seems to have about our disobedience is, in itself, a rather hubristic (? Is there such a word?) view of our place in God's grand scheme of things.
You invited the comparison when you posed the question: How would YOU feel if these "less than nothings" rebelled and quite frankly, if I were God and I had invested these less than nothing with free will I prolly wouldn't care. It might be interesting to watch, but certainly nothing to be either disappointed, afraid, or angry about. Those kinds of emotions only come about in HUMANS- or, in very anthropormorphised gods.
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Free as in freedom, not beer.
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