My case for why there is no conscious, seperate entity such as God (Bible-like God, that is)

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, March 19, 2006 08:14
VIEWED: 18094
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CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

“I guess there's a plan for all of us. I had to die, twice, just to figure that out. Like the book says ‘The Lord works in mysterious ways.’ Some people like it; some people don't.”
--- John Constantine

That was cool, and I also like "The Ten Commandments", but for entertainment purposes only.

That flick where Christopher Walken called us talking monkeys was a kick, too Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
“I guess there's a plan for all of us. I had to die, twice, just to figure that out. Like the book says ‘The Lord works in mysterious ways.’ Some people like it; some people don't.”
--- John Constantine
That was cool, and I also like "The Ten Commandments", but for entertainment purposes only.

This is going to my new response to all things god.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
"What would you do if God appeared before you and performed whatever miracles required to convince you he was real?" I replied that I'd punch him. My friend laughed, but I wasn't kidding.

Funny you say that. Growing up learning 'bout God in Sunday school and watching bodies get shipped back from Vietnam at an early age put me to challenging both God and Satan (at different times) to fistfights. Now, they're both badasses, so I'm certain my challenges went unanswered not because of that.
Logically, they must not exist, or I'd have gotten a supernatural black eye (More like to be I'd have cleaned Biblical house on them, if they came in human form

).

Contender Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by aussay:

Without tribulations, faith is not required etc.

I'd say that's probably the best argument that can be made 'for' God.
But then, Like in the movie Constantine, it's all a game. And I'm not playing, 'cause the DM is a d**k.

Chrisisall's Bogus Journey

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
This is going to my new response to all things god.

<
-- Cicero

Hey, the Cicero quote was good too, just rather philosophical for my purposes on this thread.

Literal Chrisisall

CARTOON

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
It's like when my son is disobedient; I usually let him walk into an open mineshaft while playing unsupervised as a consequence to his sin against me.

I guess our days of agreement are over, Mr. chrisisall...

But, hey, we're Browncoats, right? So, that's something.

Okay, now onto the disagreeable parts...

The thing people (myself included) seem to have a great deal of difficulty in grasping is that God is holy. We are not.

If God were not holy (like we are not holy) then He could overlook open rebellion against Him (like we occasionally do). But God wouldn't be holy or perfect if He allowed the things He created to go off on their own and do what they wanted to whenever they wanted to.

Death, disease, destruction and all sorts of hurt are a result of sin -- and we deserve far worse. Think about it -- we've willfully disobeyed our Creator. We can't quite grasp the scope of that, because we can create nothing independently. What we can form and fashion, we are able to do using materials already created. We, ourselves, are already created (we did not create ourselves). So, it's hard for us (as created, entirely dependent beings) to imagine ourselves creating a universe out of scratch, then having these tiny, insignificant microbes rebelling against us and attempting to toss us out of their lives.

I don't know if you're familiar with the story in the OT about David's bringing the ark of the covenant back to Jerusalem (after the Philistines had it for many years). Anyhow, they had the ark on a cart (which was a "no no" to begin with, but another story altogether, and for the sake of brevity, I'll skip over). As the cart was making its way up the road (they didn't have nice paved roads like we do to day), the cart tilted, and the ark started to slide out the back. Seeing that the ark was about to slide off the cart into the mud, a man called Uzza (not sure of spelling), reached out instinctively to grab the ark -- just to keep it from falling into the mud.

One would think that this would be an "okay" thing to do, right? I mean, he didn't want the ark to get dirty? It's instinct. You see something valuable falling, and reach to stop it, right?

Well, God struck him dead instantly. David wasn't too happy over it, either. It threw a dampener on David's party. I mean, here he is bring God's ark back to Jerusalem to set it up properly in the tabernacle as it should be, and God strikes this guy dead for just trying to stop it from falling into the mud and getting all dirty.

To David, you and I (and no doubt every single human being), this seems like a harsh thing -- unless, we factor in God's holiness. As R.C. Sproul has pointed out, God would rather have had His ark fall into the mud than for man to touch it? Why? Because man is sinful -- the mud isn't. Man has rebelled against God (the mud hasn't).

God is holy, and the ark was a sign of His holy presence with the Jews, and sin is not tolerated in the presence of God's holiness -- which is also why the High Priest (and only the High Priest) was allowed to enter into the Holy of Holies only once a year (after he sufficiently cleansed himself, according to God's law), to make atonement for the sin of the people.

Yes, God does not take His holiness lightly. And as we are not God, it seems a bit on the drastic side (understatement of all time). Fortunately for us, however, God is also merciful. And as I've explained multitudinously elsewhere, while He is holy (and cannot overlook willful rebellion), He is also gracious, and has made an atonement for any who would receive it. Naturally, we're all too busy being rebellious to notice that it's there (the offer of grace), or would rather not think about our rebellion (and therefore, the need for atonement), but it's there nonetheless.

We need to stop holding God accountable for our actions, and admit that we don't deserve anything good, instead of complaining about the bad that

LIMINALOSITY

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall: Liminosity, I see we ARE one, on this thread at least.

Hey Chris, I found this for a friend the other day. I think you'll like it too...

Where are eye, ear and skin? Are they not where the thing itself is because they interact with it? Do they not occupy the same world as the table that is seen and touched? This cannot be denied. But if that is so then they are a part of the external world themselves. Therefore, to argue that we know a thing is outside because our senses tell us so, is to argue that it must be outside because our senses themselves are outside. But this brings us back to the starting point. For if everything is outside then the term “external” loses all meaning. There is no “outside” at all. We may only say that the world is there and that the senses are there but we may not say that they are external to the mind.
~ Paul Brunton The Hidden Teaching Beyond Yoga

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Cicero The Nature of the Gods.
For he who taught us all the rest has also taught us that the world was made by nature, without needing an artificer to construct it, and that the act of creation, which according to you cannot be performed without divine skill, is so easy, that nature will create, is creating, and has created worlds without number....

Very nice Finn, thanks for the Cicero

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I'm with you Chris. If the Christian God does exist, he's got one screwed up idea of compassion. A Christian friend of mine once asked me, "What would you do if God appeared before you and performed whatever miracles required to convince you he was real?" I replied that I'd punch him. My friend laughed, but I wasn't kidding.

SergeantX

Have you ever read / heard of a comic series called Preacher? It concerns (amongst other things), a dissolusioned preacher (who obtains supernatural power) traveling the world, searching for God, whom has abandoned his duties in heaven, and left mankind to their own devices. When he does eventually face God, he punches him right in the face, and tells him to get back to work.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

OMEGADARK

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 7:08 PM

First off, if you are ready to burn in hell, you will...

Quote:
Look at a baby or a small child. Can you imagine for one moment letting that small person die or become crippled or painfully injured if you had the absolute power to prevent it? Standing by and letting such events occur without changing them given the ability to easily do so would be evil, right?

Will you be open to understanding? Or will this be in vain?

You see, God and Man do not operate on the same plane or boundaries. Nothing God can do is evil, for evil are deeds, thoughts, desires, etc etc etc that are meant to harm/abuse/destroy for the sake of one owns gain or for the sake of malice itself...

God gave us an amazing ability, to be totally free ,even if he were to come down to you and say I am God, the free will he gave you will be able to believe or not believe no matter what he does, he will not interfere with this gift.

When evil happens or suffering occurs you must know that it is not meant as something in and of itself it is meant as away to grow, understand, and come to terms with life...all the evil we know, is not became of God, it is IN SPITE of God. Due to our free will we are able to do as we wish... on top of that, Nature has it's own rules for we are (animal and divine) in one structure. So when nature manufactures diseases or the like to keep itself in balance why would we not be affected? Why if mutations occur that cause awful things to happen in life would we not be affected?

TO believe that God is going to just fix everything here so that things are perfect is to seriously misunderstand this very life...

Why do you only take the awful things and blame God for his malice? Why do you not say that I can believe in something as beautiful as God when I look at a sunset, or a bug waking around, or the smile on a baby's face, marriage, having children, having sex...

why must people always give sad or tragic examples as reasons not to believe?

Since, God gave us free will he wishes us to use it for the best purpose, he wishes us to be like him (able to create, sustain, destroy, and punish)

We can create life out of our own material (like he did) we can sustain it from out own bodies (like he does hence nature) and yet since we are NOT GOD we have a limit and that limit leads to ignorance and ultimately it is ignorance that leads to such harm, evil, mailice, suffering but...

Why do people suffer? A question that was on our mind since the first instance of suffering...and one ultimately that is not satisfactorily answer...but if you believe that GOd does not suffer with us, then I don't know if you understand God.

Taken from the Christian View: since i am sure that's what your getting at:

God came down and humbled himself to become ONE OF US, to surround His human body with the same filth and sin, sorrow and suffering, and YET the same happiness and joy, health and prosperity as all of us...

But, he came not to enjoy our life or necessarily fix our earthly lives he came to save our true and eternal lives, but in the process he knew that it would have to be reconciled with His own blood, because HE DID CREATE US and as such sin came from us, He took it upon Himself to fix it...

God suffered humiliation (emotionally, psychologically, and physically), suffered pain, suffered loss, suffered death....so that we could have a chance in this life to make some difference and have our good efforts in this life not be tainted by sin but enabled us to have sin wiped away...

But you think that our suffering is not Gods? Yes, I agree most of the time it does not feel so, for when one is suffering you just wish God will come down and fix it...and in my experience it has not been that way...but for me I have overcome mine...and one day I realize things are different, and realize that I learned much from my torment (does it seem like there could be another way to learn and to grow, YES! I WISH! but it isn't this way here)

Why would you cut off such a valuable resource and companion in this

LIMINALOSITY

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:09 AM

Ok, you guys, this is the part I never quite get. God is everything, and yet evil is not of God....

Quote:
Originally posted by OmegaDark:
Nothing God can do is evil, for evil are deeds, thoughts, desires, etc etc etc that are meant to harm/abuse/destroy for the sake of one owns gain or for the sake of malice itself...

God gave us an amazing ability, to be totally free ,even if he were to come down to you and say I am God, the free will he gave you will be able to believe or not believe no matter what he does, he will not interfere with this gift.

and when God does something 'evil' right out in the open with everybody watching, we get the sleight of hand
'we deserved it'

Quote:
originally posted by 'Toon: Yes, God does not take His holiness lightly.

and doggone it, 'Toon, I've been silently agreeing with you quite a lot recently, but we all come upon these giant brick walls, don't we? Anyway, I'll continue to agree with you on other things, and an infinite universe should have some wiggle room for different ideas, yes?

I don't know, I would think that if God is everything, then God gets to be good and evil, which kind of cancels out in my book to 'neutral', or if I were an electrician, I might say God is 'ground'.
But I think I'll go get some popcorn to share and watch Constantine with Chris and Finn.

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

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