any christians here in this entire site please stand up

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UPDATED: Monday, September 22, 2025 14:45
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SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

but not until after we're dead, are facing Him, and it's too late for anyone to change anything.

I think that that is really the only certainty that anyone will agree with, regardless of what they believe. Namely, we will find out when we die.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

The Bible says that "without faith it's impossible to please God". I believe that's why He gives us a multitude of things which point toward His existence, but not the sort of thing that most people would embrace as "proof".

The problem with lots of things that point to the existence of anything, is that one day they might be explained by everyday processes. Just look at anything that science can explain. At one point in time, it was all "proof" of the existence of god. Yet now it's just everyday stuff.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

He also promises that if we seek Him with all our hearts, He will be found. (He doesn't hide from those who genuinely seek Him on His terms -- truly repentant and needy of His grace.)

The problem with the statement "on His terms" is that when we seek, we seek on our own terms, in our own way. So, the only logical conclusion is that only if you believe already (if only subconsciously) you will find "Him." Otherwise, you won't find "Him"; you are damned.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Although, I imagine that most people wouldn't believe it even if God walked the earth in human form and did miraculous signs which no human could ever do.

Historical documents show that throughout time, people were around that could do miraculous things that no-one else could do. But, the problem with it, is that we know that it wasn't miraculous at all, but just something that they didn't understand at the time.

I forget who said it, but there is a quote something like, "With any sufficiently advanced technology one can seem like a god."

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Oops. Wait a minute! He did do that, and most people, even faced with these miraculous things done right before their very eyes, still refused to believe.

Um, well, there is no actual documentation that shows that he did do these things aside from scripture.

Also, considering what I just said above, among the fact that there are many people the question if a historical Jesus even existed, I think that you're going to have to do better than just state that he did these things.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Really shows the hardness our stubborn, rebellious human hearts, doesn't it? (And I include myself in that category, as well.)

Assuming that Jesus existed and what the bible said is true, how exactly did everyone back then see him do these things? After all, he only did these things for a few years and everyone walked back then. Thus, this is hardly mass distribution of proof that he was the son of god and everyone should believe.

So, I really don't see how you get to the conclusion that people back then were really suborn because they all saw it. They didn't all see it.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

In summary, I believe there are plenty of indicators throughout creation which point to a sovereign Creator (and also that He's spoken to us through His word, the Bible), but "proof" that would convince a skeptic (or actually any of us apart from His grace)? Probably not in this life.

Point of fact, the bible was written by men, not god. And even then, the first books of the bible were not written by the people that they are attributed to. They were written by the students of the students of the students of the... of the Apostle.

Basically, play telephone over decades through a lot of people and you get the first books of the bible. Doesn't exactly imply the words of Jesus to me. In fact, they probably are quite different given that we can't get it right when it

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

It is vanity that leads man to defend his or her religion. And vanity that leads him to deny the existence of god.

Um, how did you get there?

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Buying a ticket to England is not proof that England exists; only proof that someone sold you a ticket there.

I think you missed the point. The point was to use the ticket to see England yourself.

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

And I don’t think that it is anyone else’s business who I pray for or don’t pray for.

It's a respect thing. You should respect the wishes of others. And if they don't want you to do something, then you should respect that and not do it. Especially when it is something that is so very optional like praying for them.

Respect and love for the fellow man. That's in the bible right?

But, what was that about vanity? Do you really think that because you are you that you have the right to do something for people against there wishes?

That's pure hubris.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CITIZEN

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:44 AM

Quote:
"With any sufficiently advanced technology one can seem like a god."

Sounds similar too:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. by Arthur Charles Clark

Or it could be from Star Trek where Jean Luc Picard met the primative Vulcan people and they though he was their God.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
It's a respect thing. You should respect the wishes of others. And if they don't want you to do something, then you should respect that and not do it. Especially when it is something that is so very optional like praying for them.

Respect and love for the fellow man. That's in the bible right?

But, what was that about vanity? Do you really think that because you are you that you have the right to do something for people against there wishes?

That's pure hubris.

Hubris is telling someone not to practice their religion, simply because you don’t believe in their religion. The Bible says to pray for people as well. If my religion means that I should pray for people, as long as those prayers don’t interfere with your life then why do you get offended if I practice my religion? What makes you believe that I’m disrespectful if I choose not to stop believing the way you claim that I shouldn’t believe? How am I being disrespectful if I choose to not to stop practicing a religion that doesn’t affect you at all, simply because you said I should?

Think about that for a little while and then maybe you’ll understand this:

It is vanity that leads man to defend his or her religion. And vanity that leads him to deny the existence of god.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CARTOON

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
The problem with the statement "on His terms" is that when we seek, we seek on our own terms, in our own way. So, the only logical conclusion is that only if you believe already (if only subconsciously) you will find "Him." Otherwise, you won't find "Him"; you are damned.

Well, who sets the terms for how one is found? The seeker or the one being sought?

For example, if you were seeking me, you could search for me the way you wanted to, and likely not find me. If you sought me the way I directed you to find me, you'd find me a whole lot easier.

God tells us how to find Him in the Bible. Naturally, if one doesn't believe that the Bible is true (and God's word), following its advice would be kind of pointless.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Um, well, there is no actual documentation that shows that he did do these things aside from scripture.

Exactly.

But, while I wasn't attempting to argue the verity of the scriptures in this thread, I was just pointing out that if one believes the Bible is true (as I do), then it clearly shows that even miraculous signs weren't enough to convince most people -- and not people who heard about the miracles (or reports of the miracles several centuries removed), but people who saw them with their own eyes as they happened.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Assuming that Jesus existed and what the bible said is true, how exactly did everyone back then see him do these things? After all, he only did these things for a few years and everyone walked back then. Thus, this is hardly mass distribution of proof that he was the son of god and everyone should believe.

Yes, but He did them over a relatively small area, and word of mouth apparently spread quickly. If you saw with your own eyes, someone raise a person who'd been dead for three days back to life, wouldn't you tell everyone you knew?

According to the scriptures, Jesus healed massive numbers of people. If there was someone miraculously healing everyone who came to Him (qualifier: "believing"), don't you think word would spread?

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, I really don't see how you get to the conclusion that people back then were really suborn because they all saw it. They didn't all see it.

Yes, they didn't all see it. I was referring to those who actually did -- and I'm sure their numbers were significant given just the nature of the healings recorded in scripture (see previous paragraph).

There are other instances in Old Testament of blatant unbelief in the face of clearly miraculous actions from God. Look at the miracles God performed in delivering the Israelities from Egypt, and yet the Bible says that they were hard-hearted and didn't believe. They grumbled and complained and showed unbelief -- which is why all but a handful died in the wilderness and never got into the promised land.

And unlike Jesus's miracles, according to Scripture, all of Israel (and probably Egypt, too) saw God's ten plagues -- and all of Israel saw the parting of the Red Sea, the daily provision of Manna (then quail), the guidance by the pillar of fire/cloud, etc. And still they complained in unbelief.

To me, that says that mankind is a pretty stubborn lot.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Just a question, have you ever read anything by Bishop John Shelby Spong?

No. Haven't heard of him.

OMEGADARK

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:56 AM

SigmaNunki

Quote:
just stated that I want to see the proof

I know what you are saying, even times as a believer I have desperately wished for such proof. I will have to say, I do not know of such 'proof'. What makes me 'see' the proof is studying the world. The absurd intricacies of life (ex. the human cell). It amazes me that such things can work so smoothly with out conscious effort(for the most part). Thus, it makes me believe something greater is the maker of such a system. There is proof if you believe it...that's the gift and the problem....

If God truly existed, and he gave us freewill, then he would not expose himself to such a degree that there would be incontrovertible proof that he is around. If so, there would be no need for faith and it would ultimately limit the extent of our own will to choose ( I know I might have made some believers angry with this because I can then see them saying, "What about Jesus..." email me if you like to yell at me...its in the profile)

Quote:
Just stating something doesn't make it true

I have to agree again, just saying it doesn't make it so either...except that the world is made up puppies, that upsets me that you don't believe that...

Does this help the discussion or give proof? Nope, I just agree that it would be great if there was proof AND that those who say there is just say what it is simply and succinctly...

In the end I believe this is just a good and fun intellectual exercise...

-OD

I love cookies and puppies, their delicious

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OmegaDark:

If God truly existed, and he gave us freewill, then he would not expose himself to such a degree that there would be incontrovertible proof that he is around.

With human progenitors on this planet it is referred to as absentee fathers or dead-beat dads.

Seriously, why the game?
Or is it all really like in "Constantine"?

Meaningless side note: I've challenged the Devil to serious mortal combat many times. The wuss never even sent a reply. What a dousche.

Somewhat cynical Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Seriously, why the game?
Or is it all really like in "Constantine"?

I hope so. Because that was awesome! Rachel Weisz is one of my favorite actresses. And I sooo want to be John Constantine, dark cynical anti-hero reluctantly fighting evil per god's design, which is why I don’t do crack.

Meaningless response: Devils are so inconsiderate.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Meaningless response: Devils are so inconsiderate.

INCONSIDERATE?!?!

The only cool devil was Darkness from "Legend", the RL Devil is a PUNK, man, APUNK!!!!!!

Every time he tries to invade my dreams, I do that aware thing, and alter the dream so I can KICK HIS ASS!!!!

And Finn, please, as with most other threads, this is not the place for levity; try to keep it on a little more serious level, huh?

"I hate it when you do that.." Chrisisall, sourse of Weisz/Mummy 2 quotes 24 hours a day...

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Hubris is telling someone not to practice their religion, simply because you don’t believe in their religion. The Bible says to pray for people as well. If my religion means that I should pray for people, as long as those prayers don’t interfere with your life then why do you get offended if I practice my religion? What makes you believe that I’m disrespectful if I choose not to stop believing the way you claim that I shouldn’t believe? How am I being disrespectful if I choose to not to stop practicing a religion that doesn’t affect you at all, simply because you said I should?

Think about that for a little while and then maybe you’ll understand this:

I find it interesting that you tell me to think about that for a little while when you clearly didn't do the same.

Let's say that your religion is real and praying will actually do something (Quite frankly, if you don't believe that praying will do something, then why are you doing it in the first place?) So, your actions will effect me now won't they?

And I clearly didn't say I wanted to stop you from believing. I just stated that if I don't want you to pray for me that you should respect that and not pray for me.

Remember in FF (Train Job I think), when Inara told Book to pray for Mal. Book said (paraphrase), I don't think that he'd appreciate that. Meaning, it's my religion to do so, but I'm going to respect the wishes of Mal not to do it for him.

This is all I'm saying. Respect other peoples wishes.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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