Inara - a Wiccan perspective
POSTED BY: incongresswiththebeast
UPDATED: Friday, May 12, 2006 15:14
VIEWED: 21618
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Are you going to actually back up your sneers with some disagreements, or just poke fun at her because she's a Wiccan?
Well duh, poke fun! I'm a big believer in fun. I argue more serious folk elsewhere. This is where I come to roll around in the flowers and smile at pretty girls and fart during "Diversity Is Our Strength" lectures. Too bad Gutterball isn't around, we'd have fun with this.
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Or maybe you'll laugh at be because my religious beliefs are indifferent to a point beyond Agnostism?
Well in philosophy its called indeterminism, but I suspect you're more the real life "who gives a s..." version. Cool! I am perfectly find with your pareto-agnosticism, to coin an obscure reference.
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For being semi-Atheist, I am very connected to religious people.
Yeah, I like 'em too. I don't have the problem most agnosto-atheists have, but I also reserve the right to treat religions differently. Some, the ones with good morals and the exquisite and almost respectable Aquinas-like metaphysics aren't so bad. And some, like Wiccans, Mohhamedans and Scientologists are fricking HILARIOUS and I don't have to respect them a bit.
I don't have to argue like my opponent is serious. As the great Mencken once said, one good laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms.
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Why do I mention that? Because it's to show you that people can look upon each other and respect each other not simply in spite of theological beliefs, but BECAUSE of theological differences.
No, and that's specious crap to say. Respect is earned by definition. What you are arguing for is a de facto bland acceptance of other ideas no matter how stupid or ill-formed. I don't respect Nazi ideas and I don't respect Wiccans and I won't be forced to take them seriously. Now, I don't disrespect both the same way, and I disrespect them both for very different reasons, but the key is respect as an earned right. She earns respect by being witty in reply and slyly forcing me to address her actual issues, and then she has to earn it again by arguing for them well. That's how it works. That's how Wiccans gain respect. It won't come with a Title IX clause and bland American puritanical PC clucking.
I believe modern society has things precisely backwards: they are rude in everyday real life and cringingly sensitive in the realm of ideas. I violently disagree with this notion. Be kind to your neighbor. Be hell to his ideas. Politeness in debate is one of the worst curses of mankind, right after mass murder and the Lifetime channel.
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So allow me to dissect your post.
No! No you can't! Weeeelllll, ok. But you've gotta give me popcorn!
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You may not be the only one, and you being a trained philosophey gives you no more special insight than anyone else who can think objectively and logically
What you're looking for in formal logic is called the "fallacy of assumed authority" and you're right, it doesn't give me special imprimatur to anything. But then that wasn't my point. It wasn't an attempt at authority so much as an attempt to undermine it- namely her unearned respect. But yes, you are entirely correct that I have EARNED nothing by stating that. Then again, I didn't advance any argument. And for this I refer you to above.
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Negative viewpoints are valid, provided you give a viewpoint rather than just negativity.
Why? I mean, I did have another reason -fun- but I want to know why I can't merely be negative. Some of the greatest critics in history merely tear down without building anything in its place. Hell, Voltaire alone was a little philosophical assassin on that score. And like I said, Mencken was truly great, but I'll be damned if I can find a constructive thing he ever said.
I remember Rodney King whining "Can't we just all get along?" Well no, actually. Thank (insert diety here).
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I can understand your religious sensibilities being offended by someone of a completely opposed faith (ok, so I don't really know Wiccan'sNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Ok, since you use Voltaire as a great critic, I think we can simply stop here. But I'm bull-headed, so I won't. First of all, being simply negative doesn't put you at the elevation of Voltaire, who at least critized certain aspects of his target, rather than a general "Hee hee haw haw." That being said, satirical criticism is an emotional appeal rather than an intellectual, which you seem to favor rather abundantly in your posts. Instead of marking down my arguments and carefully refuting them, you make fun of them, inserting what unimplied stereotypes you feel will make me look stupid.
Respect, to the common degree, is not something to be withheld until earned, it is something to be taken away once abused. Of course you take away respect from groups that abuse their authority (Nazi's, KKK, the democratic party [joking!]). Nor did I imply that you accept any ideas as if your brain is a sponge. I simply stated that you should respect someone for their differences of belief. Yes, that is an overly generic statement. It should have been stated clearer, you are right on that score. You can satirize it all you want, but most fair minded people, even those who reject Wiccans as a faith, give the individual respect.
"I believe modern society has things precisely backwards: they are rude in everyday real life and cringingly sensitive in the realm of ideas. I violently disagree with this notion. Be kind to your neighbor. Be hell to his ideas. Politeness in debate is one of the worst curses of mankind, right after mass murder and the Lifetime channel."
--Agreed to wholeheartedly. Again, an example of you implying I'm making an argument that I'm not.
And yes, I can empathize with you being offended. There are many things about many faiths I find offensive, particularly Christianity. I am merely making the natural assumption that other people are human too, and feel certain beliefs so opposed to their own as to be offensive. That doesn't mean you play the Voltaire card, saving yourself from having to actually having to make an argument, and ruthlessly mock the opposing faith.
And again, in my last argument, my logic certainly did not fail me. I merely acknowledged that I have personal prejudices and stereotypes like eveyone else (If you think you don't, you are egotistical, arrogant, and condescending) including the parenthetical one. It was a means to show that we don't have to let these stereotyoes get in our way.
See how I don't use "poke fun" as an excuse for flaming on you. Next time you have a beef with someone, articulate it. Don't put words in their mouths, don't satirize it. That's just fallicious ways of making your opposition look stupid rather than you look smart.
One point of hypocrisy, I might mention.
" I suspect you're more the real life 'who gives a s...' version."
Then:
"Oh you can understand me being offended, can you? Just curious, how precisely have my religious sensibilities been hurt here? Also, while you're at it, can you tell me what my religion is? I'm just dyin' ta know."
And, because I'm halfway positive you will tell me your assumption is based on facts I already revealed, I will respond in advance. By proclaiming the Wiccan faith as below respect, you are also showing your religious sensibilities as one of a faith who does not tolerate Wiccans. Ok, I'm assuming it's a religious sensibility that does not tolerate, but there's certainly no logic to it. Adhering logic to a person's lifestyle and religious beliefs doesn't generally work.
And just because I'm feeling particularly long-winded and self-righteous (self-deprecating humor, don't satirize it as a self-admission of anything), who the hell do you think you are to place Wiccan's beneath respect? You play the card that says, "Of course I can make the judgement, we judge the same for other groups like Nazi's." Why don't you make a few comparisons to New Age Wiccans and the National Socialist movement? How can you make a comparison between a voluntary faith and a corrupt party that brutally mu
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Oh yeah, because I forgot the first time around: This is the satirical farce that doesn't make for good intellectual discussion you previously promoted. I don't think I implied this in anyway, but hey, you go ahead and put it in my mouth.
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Originally posted by BitterBierce:
Yeah, if she's pretty enough I stop my critical thinking processes too. You never know, she might be easy.
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Carry the Nuttin'
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Hey BitterBierce~
How about you stick this into your philosopy toolbag: "You don't have to respect anyone. But you should treat everyone with respect."
Difference too subtle for ya? Hope not. Too much to ask? Probably.
Adopting this view might actually make the world a better place but that's not what it's about for you. Being nice to the OP would have been against your philosophy? Or what? Would it have meant that you're politically correct? No. Just nice. But you're not. You're a dick. So be it, but if you're going to say snide things to new posters maybe you oughtta come over to the air-lock with me. 
The glaring fact here is that the original poster said things that offended you. Wah wah wah.
Admit you're offended. We don't care why you're offended, most of us will chalk it up to narrow-mindedness. News flash...this just in... could be nobody's interested in gaining your respect -what a thought.
In my little philosophy, all humans deserve a default ammount of respect just for being human. That sound silly to you? Then F**k off.
"speaking as the only trained philosopher here"
(get a life)
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Gotta speak up.
Firstly, to the matter of how much respect or disrespect Wiccans are accorded:
There are a lot of misconceptions about Wiccans, and a few of them bear clearing up. Firstly, the idea that all Wiccans are either 18 year old Buffy-fanatics with a gothy wardrobe and poor interpersonal skills, or middle-aged Boomer women who listen to New Age music and have homes festooned with crystals and cats. While both stereotypes certainly have their basis in truth, they are, like all stereotypes, neither universal or definitive. Case in point: I'm a 38 year old white male with a wife, three kids, a mortgage, an SUV and a day job.
Secondly, the idea that "Wiccan Philosophy", "Wiccan Perspectives" and Wiccan religion is a slap-dash affair, a mish-mosh of elements from everywhere without any cohesive philosophy or theology is also wrong. I know this because I have been a Wiccan Theologian for almost twenty years now, and I have studied the matter in depth. Wicca has a very complex and sophisticated theology based on a duotheistic/polytheistic godhead with an emphasis on personal psychological development using a Jungian-type method of ritual expression.
Yeah, we take a lot of heat for a lot of stuff; the point, though, is that we are as syncretic as any "world" religion, we just don't feel compelled to restrict our religious inspiration from a limited number of texts or collections of beliefs. Many of the syncretic elements of Wicca and the other neo-pagan religions are not even, from a Abrahamic perspective, particularly religious: in particular the focus on Nature, the inclusion of Magick in our practice, the lack of reliance on a single male divinity, and the elevation of sexuality to the level of the sacred. Whether or not these inclusions are reflective of the beliefs of our paleo-pagan ancestors is moot; the fact is, we consider them legitimate parts of belief and practice, and we're pretty firm about it.
All of that being said, I do think there is room for a Wiccan (or, more precisely, Neo-Pagan) perspective on Inara, the Companion's Guild, and the role of Sacred Sexuality. Which I will publish here the next time I have a few moments to write coherently on the subject.
Hope this clears some stuff up for folks.
ScrewtheALliance
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Ok, since you use Voltaire as a great critic, I think we can simply stop here.
Actually I don't think that's something you can dispute on anything except with personal taste. I didn't make any judgement about him except that he is a known man, considered great by multitudes of intellectuals, and a profoundly negative meanie. But with the way you write that, I have a sneaking suspicion that you don't really know who he is or what he meant to his time.
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First of all, being simply negative doesn't put you at the elevation of Voltaire, who at least critized certain aspects of his target, rather than a general "Hee hee haw haw."
I didn't say it did, nor did I say I was Santa Claus for all the relation it has to do with what I said. I wasn't trying a positive assertion of my bad-asslitude, I was disproving the silly puritanical assertion of non-judgementalism combined with sweetie-pie verbal aesthetics. I was disproving a negative, not proving a positive. I don't have to prove my post is anything, all I have to do is prove I have the right to put it there. See how that works?
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That being said, satirical criticism is an emotional appeal rather than an intellectual,
So? I really think you need to look up the technical word "fun" I used in the dictionary.
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Respect, to the common degree, is not something to be withheld until earned, it is something to be taken away once abused.
No, and that's a really stupid to say. You're conflating the words kindness and respect. Not only are you wrong about that, you're deeply wrong, a kind of penultimate wrong: you must center yourself in the universe and become one with your own inner wrongness.
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Nor did I imply that you accept any ideas as if your brain is a sponge.
Yeah you did, clearly, with the "open mind" crap. That means "you can disagree, but only if I like how you do it". How about this- you stick with your open mind, I'll stick with my critical thinking skills.
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I simply stated that you should respect someone for their differences of belief.
And I simply said that's a load of hooey and I don't have to "accept" a goddamn thing, much less her absurdist spiritualism.
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Yes, that is an overly generic statement. It should have been stated clearer, you are right on that score. You can satirize it all you want, but most fair minded people, even those who reject Wiccans as a faith, give the individual respect.
So then your problem is not so much with me as with the entire concept of satire. Um, ok. Good for you, you don't approve of satire. That's another idea so lividly dim I don't feel the need to refute it or even address it.
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--Agreed to wholeheartedly (note from me- to the idea that society has things backward) Again, an example of you implying I'm making an argument that I'm not.
Wrong again. You not only implied I should be cringingly sensitive the way Americans always do nowadays in our censorious culture, but you also did so using the same stock phrases and shit colloquialisms that the PC police always use. You said the same kind of stuff in the same kind of way they use it, so I conclude you meant the same thing. Not only is it a reasonable inference, but nothing you wrote so far has even given a HINT that it could mean anything else.
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And yes, I can empathize with you being offended.
Offended? In what universe did you pick THAT inference up? Neither she nor you offend me in the least- I'm as close to being immune to offense as its possible to get outside of certain American Idol contestants*. Seriously, the dictionary definition of "fun" is quite instructive, you should look it up.
In fact, I want to hazard something that will, as Otto from the Simpsons would say, "totally mess with your mind, dude"- I'm having fun right now.
I am neither offended nor do I dislike you. I mean, unless you tell me you believe in something too stupid for me to like, like anarcho syndica
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In my little philosophy, all humans deserve a default ammount of respect just for being human. That sound silly to you? Then F**k off.
Aw, I love you too, sparky!
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Ok, some tidying up before this thread gets pushed aside. First of all, welcome to the forums Incongresswiththebeast. I hope this thread doesn't scare you off. In truth, though I'm fairly ignorant of Wiccans, I am more scared of the general nerdiness of my fellow browncoats than anything else. If I'm not making too much of an assumption, I think your pseudonym is hilarious, it definately appeals to the stereotype of Wiccans that many people hold.
Second of all, Bitterbierce did in fact bring up a good point. Politeness should not extend into accepting other's ideas at face value without arguement. I think both myself and STDoubt agreed with him on that score.
People are entitled to believe what they wish. They aren't entitled respect for it. But at the same time, when they bring it up in a place meant for exchange of ideas, they should not be subjecting themselves to ridicule.
If a belief is so radical, outrageous, against common sense, and all decency, it should be fairly easy to refute that belief without resorting to emotion appeals of satire, planting stereotypes and unsaid arguments into others' statements, and general ridicule.
If a belief is personally offensive -- suck it up. I do it all the time. As I said before, I'm agnostic. I don't feel generally good-natured to Catholics who say I'll have to sit in Purgatory because I wasn't baptised and I don't confess my sins. I don't just accept the Lutheran belief that only faith alone will save me. But I suck it up, because their beliefs don't make them worse persons. I was with some Wiccan's once, and one was giving the other a backrub. Periodically, he would grasp at the air, as if he were pulling bad energy from the other man, and cast it aside. I thought it was silly, almost egotistical, for someone to think they could remove "bad energy" from a person. I'm an equal opportunity disbeliever, it's my nature. I use these examples to show how these behaviors and beliefs, from my point of view, don't make sense. But I don't "throw the baby out with the bath water."
Ok, so we've now know how to deal with outrageous and offensive beliefs. Any other kind would probably be amicable or benevolent, so we'll leave those by the side.
Bierce, your comments were totally unjustified. Especially the one "Why, he's using negative energy! Negative viewpoints aren't valid!" With my previous example, it should be obvious to outsiders why that was particularly sneering and mocking. You hide behind a cloud of being a trained philosopher and not giving anyone respect they haven't earned, yet you yourself have the arrogance to think your particular views have any more merit.
Yes, we all believe our own personal views to be correct. But some of us actually refine our views when faced with our own hypocrisy. Some of us are able to have reasonable dialog and dissent without, as you would say "a de facto bland acceptance of other ideas no matter how stupid or ill-formed."
Further more, some of your other comments on other threads I have found to be very assanine. It seems everytime I notice your name, it isn't something smart or clever, but a unwanted and uncalled for insult, retort, or generally negative comments. Keep them to yourself.
I hope this thread dies. If anyone disagrees with anything I have said, including you Bierce, just hit the reply button. Refute MY arguments, not a similar argument that is easier to ridicule. Who knows, I just might be faced with my own hypocrisy and have to admit it.
--Tristen
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Carry the Nuttin'
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There are a lot of misconceptions about Wiccans, and a few of them bear clearing up. Firstly, the idea that all Wiccans are either 18 year old Buffy-fanatics with a gothy wardrobe and poor interpersonal skills, or middle-aged Boomer women who listen to New Age music and have homes festooned with crystals and cats.
I agree, which is why the beautiful thing about Wicca is that there is so much more of them to make fun of. Why, when you've done all the Buffy girl crap you haven't even BEGUN to exhaust the ways you can make fun of them!
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Secondly, the idea that "Wiccan Philosophy", "Wiccan Perspectives" and Wiccan religion is a slap-dash affair, a mish-mosh of elements from everywhere without any cohesive philosophy or theology is also wrong.
Oh no, son. I know rather more about them than I want to, and their theo-spirituality is complete mumbo-jumbo. I was serious when I said it was statistically likely I dated her*. I have quite a lot of familiarization with standard Pagan (as opposed to Wiccan) works, most all owing to being bored in arious Pagans' houses. It comes as close to being metaphysically meaningless as it's possible to be. In terms of metaphysics, it's primitive, rock throwing reasoning. And yes there are HUGE New Age influences throughout every last strand of Paganism.
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Yeah, we take a lot of heat for a lot of stuff
Proof justice exists in this world. And really, you don't take enough heat for your views.
*- Well, not I wasn't, but I sure did date a lot of 'em. I don't know, it was like a thing.
"One seldom discovers a true believer that is worth knowing" -HL Mencken
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Ok, my last post was written as Bierce posted his last, so I feel the need to respond.
You assumption is wrong. I've read Voltaire, I know what he meant for his time. I know he used satire to great effect. So did Ben Franklin ("How to lose your empire"), and he wasn't wrong about what he wrote. But satire is an emotional appeal. No matter how much logic you pour into it, it centers on making the opposition look rediculous. I'm glad you inferred my dislike of Voltaire to mean total ignorance. If I was feeling particularly mean spirited, I'd have to come back with an unjustified comment such as "Wow, I can't even dislike a much revered figure without being branded as ignorant. I guess thinking for myself and not swollowing what I learned in college for granted makes me ignorant. I'll have to just believe in what my professor says without making judgements of my own."
Yes, you did elevate yourself to Voltaire. You pointed out the best critics tear down without building in it's place. That's what you did. Case in point, don't backpedal. I've admitted I was wrong on a score, and am about to do so again. You should do the same.
I looked up fun at www.m-w.com. The only non-enjoyment related definition was "4 : violent or excited activity or argument
How that in away way refutes my statement that satire is an emotional appeal is beyond me.
About every person getting a certain amount of respect until showing otherwise:
"No, and that's a really stupid to say. You're conflating the words kindness and respect. Not only are you wrong about that, you're deeply wrong, a kind of penultimate wrong: you must center yourself in the universe and become one with your own inner wrongness. "
How exactly am I confusing kindness and respect (of which you showed neither, by the way)? I said respect, I meant respect. If your so into Aquinas, why don't you look into Natural Law. I think he'd say respect goes towards Sociability, one of the human foundations that should never be debased. Since the principle of forfieture does not apply (Unless you consider her privately practiced beliefs forfieting respect), I think she's entitled to some. See, I can use pretty philosophical words too. And I don't even have a degree. Too bad I'm still ignorant of who Voltaire really was.
Ok, so I said "open mind," and "treat others with respect." If that means I'm totally warm fuzzy wuzzy, not only am I clearly being hypocritical, then I need to look in the mirror. Because I used similar phrases to those who would open their minds like a sponge doesn't mean I'm one of those persons. I already admitting dropping the ball with my vague words, no need to beat a dead horse.
Me:
"I simply stated that you should respect someone for their differences of belief."
"And I simply said that's a load of hooey and I don't have to "accept" a goddamn thing, much less her absurdist spiritualism. "
Who's confusing words now? I said respect, not accept. Completely different. See natural law argument above.
On me disagreeing with satire as a form of argument:
"That's another idea so lividly dim I don't feel the need to refute it or even address it."
Good for you. Glad to see we can have meaningful discussion. I believe I have explained everyone one of my counterpoints to your positions. I'm certainly giving you a hell of a lot more respect than you are giving me, or than you deserve. I'm also glad you see anyone who disagrees with you on such a score is so stupid, or "lividly dim" (You said the idea is lividly dim, it's my idea, so that means I'm lividly dim. Not perfect logic, I know.)
Ok, so maybe I assumed you were offended. I failed to realize you needed absolutely no provocation to belittle someone. My bad, I was giving you a little more credit, once again, than you deserve.
Even atheists have religious views, they're just expressed as a negative instead of as a positive. If you believe there is no god or spiritual guidence, then a belief that th
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