Any atheists in here?
POSTED BY: BlackCollarBrowncoat
UPDATED: Sunday, March 12, 2006 20:19
VIEWED: 38267
PAGE 12 of 18
Quote:
Originally posted by britet:
If someone responds to this with “your argument is based on the assumption god doesn't exist” i may lose it.
Then change your argument so that it does not provoke that response.
It doesn't matter that it is not strictly logical, it matters what assumption it starts from. The way to make people stop saying that is to base your argument on a different assumption, preferably one we can all agree with, physical laws are usually a good basis. The human being's ability to perceive the universe is also generally considered a good start.
If you can not make such an argument (I'm not saying that you can't, I'm just thinking ahead and that's a possibility) then perhaps it's time to consider the possibility (just the possibility mind you) that you are acting on faith. After all if you need to use a basis that people can't agree with you on that means it's not based in science or logic or perception, so where did it come from?
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The cult of YWHW the war God became the cult of the God that can't be named, which became Judaism which Christianity split from. Islam similarly split from these and their traditions.
This was somewhat watered down in Christianity, too merely "do not take the lords name in vain", but this is the reason we really don't know for sure how to pronounce the tetragrammaton. Some say its Yahweh some say Jehova, there may be others, I don't know. In fact in Judaism its still taboo to pronounce the tetragrammaton, substituting Adonai instead.
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Another reason why the God cannot be named cannot be named may be because to call a God by its true name was to have power over it. So theoretically ancient Hebrews could have been using God true name to control him.
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Who do you suppose is in there?
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That's the reason given, though I've heard the argument (made here by our own Dreamtrove no less) that may be it was more too do with disguising the fact that it was a war god cult...
Hence it became the Cult of the god who cannot be named.
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Its also interesting that Baal the name most of the common people would have called him (Ba’al means lord) became a shameful name and then a name associated with evil, eventually becoming Baalzebub or Beelzebub.
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Who do you suppose is in there?
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Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
...I'm not saying this should stop, I'm just saying be civil.
You're lecturing me on being civil?!!
After your tirade in response to my last post, I'd decided to give it a break. I didn't see what I'd done to set you off, but you clearly weren't in an emotional state to continue fruitful discussion. But you keep pushing harder, repeating the same fallacious arguments. Then you have the nerve to accuse others of doing exactly what you're doing.
You are the one arguing from a point of assumption. You assume god's existence and state that it's up to non-believers to prove you wrong. That flys in the face of basic logic and undermines whatever point you're trying to make. If you were merely saying that atheists cannot prove that god does not exist, fine, that's a true statement.(It's also relatively meaningless, because it's impossible to prove a negative.) But you insist on going further, making the unsupported leap to conclude that atheists are acting on faith in the same way that believers are - that atheism is a religion. That's completely unfounded.
If pointing out why I disagree is something you find insulting and inspires you to launch into more angry ad hominem attacks, so be it. All you've proven on this thread is that you are a first-class asshole and incapable of discussing anything that doesn't fit your personal belief system.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Actually I think Baal was an ancient fertility god. He was horned (or at least his contemporaries were) and it is where I believe we can trace back the term 'horny'. The two fingers behind someone’s head joke also stems from this, it was an old pagan sign indicating the horned fertility god, meaning that person was very fertile, it's actually a complement.
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I have a lot of catching up to do, but if I may chime in on the 'atheism as religion' debate -
The intersection of theists and atheists in belief. Non-believers do not intersect.
The intersection of non-believers and atheists is no god. Theists do not intersect.
If you don't take these two factors into account at the same time, you miss vital distinctions.
Therefore, atheism is not a religion (belief in god).
IMHO
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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That’s a different Baal. There are an incredibly large number of (seemingly completely unrelated) Gods named Baal true out Europe and the middle east. Its actual very weird. All these gods in all these unrelated cultures all with the same name.
Anyway to the ancient Hebrews Baal was a general term used to describe Gods (as I said it means lord)
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Baal never meant strictly lord as I understand it. Baal, at least the Baal mentioned in the Bible, was a Canaanite god, who was responsible for War and Fertility among other things. Baal was the name of the god, whose title was also Almighty, or Lord of the Earth, but I don't think it meant Lord.
El was often used in Semitic Religions (including that of the Canaanites) as either a specific god or for gods in general. El is also used as a synonym for YHWH in the Old Testament.
In some Canaanite cults El was the chief god, in others it was Baal, which makes the issue a little harder because Baal can be translated too English as "Lord" but may also be translated as "Husband" for instance. Like I said, hard too tell I suppose, especially since Baal and El were also interchangeable in some Cults...
I think it is more correct to say El meant god, gods or Lord though.
Edit:
It's not actually that weird, ideas trade and people flowed quite freely between Europe and the Middle East. The Phoenicians trade heavily with in the Mediterranean for instance.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear
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