An analysis of the illusion of freedom

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Friday, April 24, 2026 16:13
VIEWED: 7512
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GEEZER

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer,
Quote:
please note who threw out the first "a**hole"
My comment was in response to this - which was a personal attack.
Quote:
If it REALLY troubled you that much you'd be out there doing something about it and not whining on an internet forum.
You have a vote, use it.
Stop slithering.

Okay. So I can add "thin-skinned" and "lacking a sense of humor" to your profile.

I just thought it pretty funny that anyone who's spent any time on this forum (Dreamtrove in this instance) would think that you need defending.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

FLETCH2

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I think some people are just born attuned to others. For them the suffering of someone in Guatemala is meaningful. Others have a strong sense of justice. For some it might be a sense of duty. There are probably several paths by which people are involved in things larger than themselves and their family.
.

I'm not discussing empathy, I would hope people had that, if you don't you barely qualify as human, what I'm taking about is people's willingness to even notice issues that don't impact them personally.

Back when I was a student I shared a house with a friend. He was by all accounts the least thoughtfull individual I have ever known. To give you an idea how his mind worked he once watched an argument between me and another guy that almost came to blows. Afterwards pretty riled I walked home with him and he told me I shouldn't have been such a jerk with the other guy. Now by then I'd cooled off and was starting to think the same, that I'd pushed the other guy too hard. But my friend said --- you shouldn't have alienated him he might have been usefull to you in the future.

Anyway, you might imagine that the guy was irredemable except that when it came to donating to charity, both money and his valuable time, he was always generous even though there was obviously no benefit to him in being so. I concluded that he really was a selfish bastard by instinct, but when faced with something that pushed through that emotional isolation he was extremely generous.

In my view he's an extreme version of the standard human type. Day to day he lives his life and does his thing. Occasionally he's shocked out of that and rises to the occasion. The rest of us are mutants be we the truely selfish sociopathic kind or the selfless care givers.

FLETCH2

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:24 AM

To get this back to Firefly for a moment. When Mal takes Niska's offer to rob the Paradiso train he doesnt ask what he's taking or if it would hurt anyone or anything much. That's because Mal needs the coin for him and his. Had the heist gone smoothy the folks in Paradiso would probably have died miserably.

Faced with the consequences of his action Mal does the right thing because at that point he can see beyond him and his. I think that's why we find these characters interesting, we recognise that they contain some of those common truths that make us all human.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 12:34 PM

Quote:

TV has an interesting property. In one of my many different hospital jobs I was an EKG technician. I did EKGs on pre-ops (and ER patients, 'codes' etc.)

At the time not many people had ever had an EKG. So when I started attaching wires with wet cold electrode pads, most people made some comment about being electrocuted and asked at least a few questions, unless they were watching TV. If they were watching the boob tube, they barely stopped to notice. They went through a novel experience that was vaguely threatening, with strong stimuli (cold wet pads), and they could hardly be detached from the TV.

It was at the time that I formulated the attaction of TV as a SENSORY experience - it is colorful, it has variation of sound (loud and soft, music and voice), and, with camera cuts back and forth, it is always moving. It also has the simulation of emotion which people tend to focus on.

And thus the power of the internet has been demonstrated. If Rue had been watching TV instead of using the internet, she would have said "Oooh, Look at the little pictures. Dancing lights. Pretty."

RUE

Friday, February 24, 2006 3:12 AM

Huh?

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

RUE

Friday, February 24, 2006 3:20 AM

Fletch2

People have a reward circuit in their brains that makes them happier cooperating in a friendly way. Contention is biologically stressful, a secure social environment is comfortable.

I think like any brain circuit that needs to be developed (even binocular vision) it's possible to permanently stunt connections to others during childhood.

It's probably a mistake to say 'human nature is like ....' b/c it's a trainable system.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

RUE

Friday, February 24, 2006 3:23 AM

Geezer,

Quote:
I just thought it pretty funny that anyone who's spent any time on this forum (Dreamtrove in this instance) would think that you need defending.

You know, I never initiate an attack, though I do respond to them. Except for when it comes to you. You're special. And not in a good way.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

SIGNYM

Friday, February 24, 2006 4:36 AM

Quote:
Why not add the Internet, in which you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time. It's hilarious that you would, on the one hand, bash TV as some sort of imposed "illusion of freedom," and then spend so much time and effort posting and reading on a fan forum of critically acclaimed TV show.

I'm not sure I see the point. The internet- as I use it- has more to do with reading, writing, and communicating than TV. Multiple inputs and freedom of expression, hardly the top-down passive TV experience. SO I wonder if you understand what I'm saying, 'cause I sure don't know what YOU'RE saying!

Quote:
But to siggest that freedom is merely an illusion in this country, or that money/class alone determines how much freedom you have, is such a narrow and ignorant conception of this country that it is amazing to see it expressed here.

Have you ever spoken to a parent whose child is suffering and dying from lack of health insurance? I have. To suggest that class and money have nothing to do with freedom is lunacy.

Quote:
Again, I have to ask, to what state of freedom are you comparing the present situation in the US? If you are talking about the Hobbesian or Lockian "state of nature," then you really should be on your hands and knees thanking God or fate or whomever that we do NOT have "perfect freedom."

Finally, a point I can agree with! Primitivism doesn't equal freedom. Freedom is being able to control the forces that control you.

Quote:
I may have been more inclined to agree with some of your sentiments before I spent a significant amount of time in other countries. It helped to realize that the freedoms we enjoy in this country, while very far from perfect, are not mere illusions at all.

It would be nice to be free to walk safely downtown at night.

Quote:
Normally, the people (like some of the people posting on this thread) who complain about "the system", or some meaningless, nebulous idea such as "illusion of freedom" are compensating for their own short-comings, placing blame on the government because of what they are unable to accomplish.

Really? What do you suppose I've accomplished? What do you suppose I'm "compensating" for? You really don't know, do you? Of course not.

Quote:
The best advice I give you is that if you really want to grow as a person and exercise the freedoms available to you

and part of that is my freedom to try concincing others of my point of view, right?
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

DREAMTROVE

Friday, February 24, 2006 5:20 AM

The 'system' is wrong.
It's always wrong.
It's never going to be not wrong.

That's why it's the system.
It is a part of us, and we are a part of it.
It behooves us to find what's wrong and fix it.

And then there will be other things that are wrong.
This process of perpetual improvement is called evolution.
The fact that we have such a system says that our system is dynamic, that we are not socialists, with a top down utopian ideal system, but instead have a pragmatic, adjustable, system.

Yay us. Mock on.

BEKKA

Friday, February 24, 2006 8:20 PM

They went through a novel experience that was vaguely threatening, with strong stimuli (cold wet pads), and they could hardly be detached from the TV

This would be me completely. I call it "TV hypnosis". Can't have a conversation with anyone if the TV is on.

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