Humpty-Dumpty and all the King's horses
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Friday, February 24, 2006 22:47
VIEWED: 3294
PAGE 4 of 6
DT- I didn't see your response. Sorry for stepping on your toes!
I came to realize in the Illusion of Freedom thread that some people deal with captivity by constructing their fearless leaders as benign father-figures. The thought that their fearless leaders might actually be blood-sucking aliens is just too much to be borne. I fear such is the case with Geezer.
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Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:Actually, Geezer is absolutely right. Legitimate criticism and disagreement is one thing, but that’s not what often accompanies the anti-Bush and Anti-American arguments. Much of the time, at least on this board, those positions are defined by fanatical rhetoric and posturing, and fanatics aren’t known for being internally consistent in their arguments.
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
What you are doing, Geezer, is not presenting the full argument in order to make the side you don't like look like a pack of hypocrites. This isn't even my argument on the issue, but I'll break down what you're doing so it's nice and clear to everyone.
Take Dreamtream for instance, who makes the absurd statement that “[[]w[]]e’re evil,” and that we should “rise up and burn [[]our government[]] down.” That kind of neo-Nazi anarchist nonsense is idiotic. That’s not opposition or legitimate criticism. It’s the ramblings of a fruitcake, and nothing he says can be taken seriously anymore.
Part of his reasoning for this anarchist crap is that “We failed to defend Hong Kong.” Now no one can be sure what that means, but one imagines that he’s talking about the British honoring the 100 year treaty with China that returned Hong Kong to Chinese rule. Even if one disagreed with the British in that instance, what should we have done? Should we have attacked Britain, our strongest and most ardent ally? Or China our strongest and most powerful enemy? Either way, we risk a war with potentially hundreds of millions of casualties. But we’re “evil” for invading Hussein's Iraq, instead of Britain or China, I guess.
That’s just one example of the lunacy that has come to define the anti-Bush and anti-American arguments. I tried to point this stuff out in another thread, that this kind of bombastic and often nonsensical rhetoric does nothing but leech away your credibility. If you disagree with Bush’s policies there have got to be better ways to making that known.
Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby
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Finn,
I was being figurative. I wasn't suggesting that we should rise up in armed revolt, I think we should impeach the bastard through due process of law. i meant that a society which doesn't oppose its own capacity for evil becomes Nazi Germany. It is the only way Nazi Germany can happen.
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Quote:What do you define as anti-American? To me, that means subverting the Constitution, restricting American liberties, meddling in countries in ways that having nothing to do with defense, and setting up some groups or people above the law and above others. Anything that you disagree with? If you do, then we simply have a fundamental disagreement on what it means to be American.
Legitimate criticism and disagreement is one thing, but that’s not what often accompanies the... Anti-American arguments.
And what do you define as "legitimate"? Anything that agrees with you?
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Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:
What do you define as anti-American? To me, that means subverting the Constitution, restricting American liberties, meddling in countries in ways that having nothing to do with defense
I disagree with the last, but I basically agree with the rest. Meddling overseas is pretty american. Invading on a preemptive war with a preset agenda to fix the world to our liking and possibly steel some oil is good old early 20th century germany thinking. No offense to the germans, who are not presently invading anyone. I like germans fine, nice place germany, been there a few times. Nice place america too, but I want to add a few things:
American business, their workers, their profits, they phisical buildings, their workers jobs, the cities that they operate and live in, even if they are new orleans. These two, are america, and if you are anti them, you are anti-american.
Bush's response to the recent problems at Gm and ford, which are a direct result of Bush's own energy policy, was : Let them die.
I can't think of a more anti-american sentiment.
I'm downgrading Bush to traitor. Possibly worse than Bin Laden, objectively, but not yet worst president ever.
Ps. If you have problems with my "worse than Bin Laden" please understand how pragmatic I am. I mean completely objectively, kills more people, destroys more American property. Bin Laden is still pretty awful in my book, #1 terrorist. Chances are I'm a lot more anti-Bin Laden unless you also have friends whose relatives were killed in a terrorist attack, which people in london might.
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Quote:“bastard?” “evil?” Allusions to Nazi Germany? I’m not sure that you understood my point. I’m sure that it’s all figurative; it’s just nonsense. Another way of putting it is that your argument has no perspective. If the US is “evil,” then what was Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia? I don’t think you are suggesting an armed revolt. I think you are using that kind of language for shock value; it’s just bombastic posturing. Its only value is to stir up hatred for Bush and/or the US.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Finn,
I was being figurative. I wasn't suggesting that we should rise up in armed revolt, I think we should impeach the bastard through due process of law. i meant that a society which doesn't oppose its own capacity for evil becomes Nazi Germany. It is the only way Nazi Germany can happen.
Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby
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How do you define the "evil" and "good" of a nation? Number of people dead as a result of policies? Average standard of living in the country? Highest aspirations?
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Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Then you proceed to muddy the wiretapping issue (ala your Fox news talking points) and the Dubai deal.
I was gonna respond until I hit this phrase - the code words for "I'm not going to take you seriously no matter what you say." No point in wasting my time.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:
Why, because it's all our fault, of course... We're evil, EVIL, don't you hear?
And from the other thread:Quote:The nice thing about Geezer is that you can always count on him to put words in other people's mouths. Not that I'm saying he's intellectually and rhetorically dishonest or anything. I'm sure he truly thinks he's making a point.
So you're saying all Muslims are terrorists and are not to be trusted? How enlightened of you.
tee hee
More like paraphrasing the words that come out of their mouths. Chortle.
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
We're evil. Our govt. is just f^&king evil, at this moment. If we the people don't rise up and burn them down, then we too, are evil.
Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
Bush has approved A Middle Eastern Company in Dubai to take over U.S Port security...do I really need to say more,Dubai also has ties to Al qaeda.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Believe it or not, I have nothing against the USA. I have a lot against the weasely, lying, greedy, corrupt sociopathic Bush & Co Admin who screwed the pooch in Iraq, bankrupted the USA, and set the whole world against us.
Geezer, Geezer, Geezer... when will you learn to make the distinction? Bush is not the USA. Amazingly, NO President is the USA. Halliburton is not the USA.
Perhaps you should discuss terminology with your compatriots.
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The US working the fantasy of a united non-religious Iraqi government? Or the Iraqis working the fantasy that the US will not cut and run?
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
1. Democracy is a flawed system. It has led to some of the worst disasters in history... The problem is that the system is seriously flawed, riddled with corruption, and not particularly representative of the will of the people.
4. It's really, really, not our job. The United States is not some all powerful God. The United States is a nation with problems, serious problems. It has a horribly flailing economy, an increasingly uneducated and unproductive populous, more debt than most people can imaging, is progressively losing ground on internation trade, and has a decaying, overinflated and seriously out of date healthcare system, to say nothing of its welfare, and transit systems. Added to that, we have embarked on this christian democrat crusade which has made us hated by the world.
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The fact is we are not stopping the Nazis here. We are the Nazis. We're not stopping the real agression in the world which is China. We failed to defend Hong Kong, and now we're failing to defend Taiwan. On the genocide front, we failed to defend Rwanda, and now we're failing to defend Darfur. We failed to defend the jews or go to war with Germany.
Sounds like U.S. bashing to me. And I'm pretty sure Hong Kong, the Rwanda genocide, and WWII were not on Bush's watch.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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