Humpty-Dumpty and all the King's horses

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Friday, February 24, 2006 22:47
VIEWED: 3294
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SIGNYM

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 5:28 PM

Quote:
The U.S. ambassador delivered a blunt warning to Iraqi leaders Monday that they risk losing American support unless they establish a national unity government with the police and the army out of the hands of religious parties.

To underscore his remarks, Khalilzad reminded the Iraqis that the United States has spent billions to build up Iraq's police and army and said "we are not going to invest the resources of the American people and build forces that are run by people who are sectarian" and tied to the militias — some of which the ambassador said received "arms and training" from Iran.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060220/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=
AvdSA_Ok_2PVty0Ngb8rm0.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b3JuZGZhBHNlYwM3MjE-

I wonder how long they'll keep working this particular fantasy.

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Free as in freedom, not beer.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 1:21 AM

I think we have to accept that Iraq is divided by religion and let them have three theocratic parties, which is what they want. It's unrealistic to think Iraq minus a socialist dictator would be America. At best, it will probably be Iran. Maybe even that is something worth striving for.

RUE

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 1:31 AM

I wonder how long they'll keep working this particular fantasy.

Who they? Which fantasy? The US working the fantasy of a united non-religious Iraqi government? Or the Iraqis working the fantasy that the US will not cut and run?

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

SEVENPERCENT

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 1:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
It's unrealistic to think Iraq minus a socialist dictator would be America.

Really? Maybe someone should have called GWB (and Dick) and let them know that before they set out on their little endeavor. But hey, remember - the Iraqis got that purple ink on their fingers, and as we all know, that magically makes your country as American as apple pie.

Bah.

Cynically,
7%

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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

HERO

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 3:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
It's unrealistic to think Iraq minus a socialist dictator would be America.

Why is it that only America can be America. We have spread liberty and democratic values to millions of Arabs, Africans, Europeans, Asians, Hispanics, and all that just in the United States.

Prior to 1945 no culture on earth was more ingrained against Western values then Japan. They changed, liberty, even liberty at the point of a bayonet, changes people.

Every other time in history political institutions have been imposed upon people. In our case we are imposing the people on the political institutions. Its conflict, change, ugly, dirty, hard work. But the ends justify the means.

Did you see the female Turkish figure skater? Beauty and grace from a culture whose women know neither. Change can happen.

H

FLETCH2

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:30 PM

Americans are self selecting. They are either born under this system of government or choose to come here. That's a little different from an outsider coming into a country and saying "do this -- it works for us."

Democracy is a bloody business. To get from feudalism to a fully representative democracy in my country took three realy massive wars and countless insurrections. Even the US needed three and that's a big sacrifice. Perhaps what we're seeing is the first of the two or three serious wars Iraq needs to go through to figure out that Democracy is better than an eternity of sectarian infighting?

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 11:03 PM

Iraq and countries like them , live and breath religion , its who they are, Iraq itself is the cradle of civilization, its where the 1rst known high civilzation started and religion has always been with them, not every country wants to be a democracy like America, some people just aren't built that way.

SEVENPERCENT

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 11:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Prior to 1945 no culture on earth was more ingrained against Western values then Japan. They changed, liberty, even liberty at the point of a bayonet, changes people.

That's completely wrong, Hero - Do some googling, or watch the history channel sometime. Japan was very westernized prior to 1945, they even had many of the stages of a full blown European-style gov't, including a parliament and a cabinet (though used as a tool of military expansion - much like many western democracies, go figure).

It wasn't nearly as difficult to turn Japan into a Western-style democracy as it is Iraq, and I wish people who don't know better would stop using Japan as an example.

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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

CITIZEN

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 11:54 PM

I was about to point that out 7%, but you beat me too it. I'll add that where Iraq's government was destroyed, The America worked with the existing administration to enact changes that were already in process before the war.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:27 AM

Without a doubt we’ve proven that we can replace an illiberal regime with a liberal one with stunning success. In fact, in all the places where we have done it, the success has not only brought freedom, stability and prosperity to the region in question but has positively influenced the world in general. Off the top of my head Germany, Japan and South Korea were all recreated with liberal prosperous governments at the barrel of a gun, despite the howls of academics claiming that neither society was capable of democracy. In fact, South Korea is a perfect, almost scientific, example of what nation building can accomplish right next to the North Korean “control.” So there can be no doubt that it can be done and that it has been done with stunning success.

The question still remains, though, is it worth doing? Along with proving that nation building not only works but can be very successful, we’ve also shown that it is a very difficult, very bloody and very expensive thing to do. In all previous cases, it was a bloody and long term commitment. It took circa a decade in each case. I don’t really agree that we can gage current nation building efforts with the turmoil surrounding the creation of modern democracy. Creating modern democracy was much more difficult then installing it in modern times. And that makes sense, because inventing something is certainly a much steeper curve then reinventing it after you’re familiar with all or most of its aspects. So I don’t expect that it should take more then one war to install democracy in Iraq, but I should think that it has been and will continue to be a very long road to the kind of success that we have seen in other instances and should expect from Iraq. The question is not whether it can be done, but whether we have the gumption to do it. That’s the only thing that bothers me.

I certainly think it is worth doing. I don’t think the West has the resources to take on too many nation building projects, since they are major long term commitments and I’m just not sure that we have the same chutzpah that we did back in the 40s and the 50s. But the Middle East has been a backward, (almost medieval) fragmented and tumultuous region since at least the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. If we can install a liberal regime in the Middle East it could very well start a rethinking within the Middle East of how things are done. At the very least, it is certainly worth giving a try, if we are willing to put the effort into it as a nation(s).

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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