Conservative Policies
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 01:16
VIEWED: 2425
PAGE 2 of 3
StarSong,
I really agree. I'm not sure of the date, but in the 1820s 'liberal' was used to mean laissez faire economics, and by the 1920s it was used to mean socialism.
'Conservative' has been pretty consistant though, in connection with 'conserve.' It was used in the last election by Kerry, who claimed to be more conservative than Bush. Bush used it in 2000 in the phrase 'Compassionate Conservative.'
Fletch,
I knew you would agree with Geezer. That doesn't mean that you are right. You should acquire some humility, use things like IMHO. The thing is, I think you think you are right on everything, and that's how it comes across. In case you missed it, I said I did not want to get into an etymological discussion. I really wanted to discuss what might be more appropriate for a conservative politics.
Btw, I knew you would oppose me here because it suits your agenda, whatever that is, to do so. Having Bush be the epicenter of conservative makes conservative look really bad, which you value, just as making liberal look good.
Strangely, this puts you in the position of saying Liberal is only what liberal was in 250 BC, but Conservative is whatever Bush said it is at 3:00 this afternoon. It's a peculiar position, but one I knew you would take.
BTW, Initially, in the US, the picking of the term was based on resources, the conservative govt. was a limited one, as in using less. The philosophy grew out from that seed. I don't know what it was in the UK.
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You have to be carefull because both Liberal and Conservative (capitalised) are party names in the UK.
Interesting point. I hadn't thought of that. We usually say LibDem , Labour and Tory, but I guess technically your right. I will try to stick to using the small c and small l.
I want to add something here, so that we understand each other:
Conservative, in the US, is a philosophy. It's a well thought out philosophy with a long history, and a support of the slight majority of the people. A lot of people don't subscribe to it, which is fine. Those of thus that do, actually do care about something.
No amount of battering us about the head, or spinning things around is going to make us give up on that philosophy. I think that what you are trying to do is undermine the idea of conservative, which is simply not worth the effort.
This phisophical viewpoint has nothing to do with George W. Bush, and it has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, in whose divinity, as a Taoist, I do not believe. It's based in an approach to problems which is more reserved, or conservative, than liberal philosophies.
There have been a long line of republican presidents who follow this philosophy quite closely, and a Reagan who followed it more or less. A majority of Republicans currently in the Senate follow this philosophy. They are not neocons. Just because Bush says "conservative is this" EVEN IF we took that conservative could change at 3:00 in the afternoon, it would still not be so, because even Bush is vastly outnumbered in his own govt. by traditional conservatives. They don't oppose him in droves because Bush has given himself dictatorial powers. But when the fall comes they will, in their very reserved manner, and conservative will return to being what it was. I sincerely think this will happen in the republican party, but I assure you, if it does not, it will happen outside of the GOP. I think the overwhelming support for Perot was caused by the slight deviation of Reagan. The extreme deviation of GWB could cause a permanent split.
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Not at all. I "oppose" you because you make the same mistake again and again. Your initial fault was that you decided that political "conservative" meant every one of the dictionary definitions and then constructed a "reason" why "liberal" was it's polar opposite, even going to the extreme of inventing a new Latin root to make it so. When not just I but most of the people here questioned you on it you do what you always do, claim that long hours of scolarly review led to this conclusion but you dont have time to deal with that right now. Forced to put up or shut up you backed down but claimed victory.
This is EXACTLY the same case, except it sticks with the word "conservative" and I fully expect that as before you will be beaten up on both sides who don't like your overly simplistic dicking with the language. I don't need IMHO because it's not my opinion it's a definition from a dictionary. Since dictionaries are by definitions the authorities on the definition of words citing them is not opinion but fact, therefore I see no reason to suggest that it's just my opinion.
As for Bush being a paradyne of "conservative" thought I have never claimed it. I have challenged your assertion that he's in some way a left wing "plant" because the broader arc of his policy fits with the general concerns of the Republican party as a whole. I'm carefull to make that distinction because the Republican party, like most "big tent" parties is a broad church. Conservatives choose to stay within that party however the party as a whole is not and never has been purely conservative.
Now if you asked the smart question (which you never do) then I would say no, I don't think that Bush is a very good conservative. I knew that the moment he cut taxes and "forgot" to cut spending to pay for them. Tax and spend and borrow and spend are kissing cousins that lead to disaster. His foreign policy is interventionist, and while that isn't of itself a none conservative trait --- Jefferson sent the Marines to Tripoli remember? --- certainly goes against the isolationist tendencies of the early 20th century.
Like I said before your Democrats are piss poor liberals in any case. Why would I defend them? If anyone here is trying to spin the current political situation to whitewash a party, that would be you.
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Geezer,
Thanks for the detail, I think I made the point that he didn't use it in the campaign, but I wasn't sure. He used it in 2000. That means that he at one point claimed to be one, but clearly now isn't. If you don't want to accept 'Bush lied,' you can have 'Bush changed his mind.'
Which is percisely my point. Bush is not a conservative, everyone seems to agree, except some on the left who seek to use Bush to discredit conservatism which really isn't fair. If Bush were solidly conservative, yet awful, it would be fair.
I guess that makes him something else. As time is bound to hammer out that neoconservative isn't really conservative, and it's not really socialist, it will have to be called something else. I know there are a few people who support that position, whatever it is, I am certainly not one of those people, but I believe you are, so I lay this task on you, Geezer. Name it. Come up with a new name for this new ideology that has sprung up.
I don't recall if you're one of the people who also liked Clinton, I think Auraptor said he did. Bush/Clinton/Blair-ism is probably more or less a consistant philosophy which someday may have it's own political party. Right now, they have ours, but realistically, that is not going to last.
You can tell by the thrashing that Cheney gets every time he sneezes, that it is not going to last, and that thrashing is largely not coming from Democrats.
So, anyway, I invite you who support this Bush/Clinton/Blair-ism to come up with a name for it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Btw, I knew you would oppose me here because it suits your agenda, whatever that is, to do so.
Now here's where it always gets sticky. Anyone who doesn't agree with you (using the general "you" here, since this applies to several people on this board) can't just hold a different opinion...they must have an "Agenda". So everything they post must be in service of that "Agenda" (Brrr...scares even me.)rather than their actual opinion. And of course since they can't have come up with their ideas on their own, they have to have been spoonfed them. Probably paid dupes of the (fill in your Conspiracy of the Week here).
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Fletch,
I'm not a moron.
I'm not the moron you seem to think I am.
I'm not wrong. I wasn't wrong then, and I'm still not wrong. Unlike you, I'm not an adamant diehard adherer to my ideas. I don't concoct things out of whole cloth.
My position is simple, allow me to lay it out by analogy. I believe in evolution because I have a motherlode of information backing up the idea. You have come to me and said "but God created the world in seven days." My failure to budge from my position has not been a representation of my stubbornness, but one of the total failure of you rhetorric to alter the balance of evidence.
All my definitions were backed up by dictionaries, and I do not need your empty rhettoric to try to color the picture. I'm am still certain of my conclusions. It doesn't bother me that you think I'm not very bright, you haven't impressed me at any point, either. What bothers me is that you endlessly inject your spin. I'm not whitewashing anything, and that's not a phrase we use in politics in this country unless we mean to remove cultural and ethnic influences. But even guessing at your meaning, I'm doing nothing. Just saying there was an ideology, 'conservative' which is not one of a party. 'Republican,' was a party that tried to adhere to that for some time. Not everything republican was always conservative, but there is a population in the country which support the idea.
I didn't say he was a left with plant, I said he was fronting for an ideology which grew out of a weird type of militarist socialism, and is now something else. Cheney's policy arc does not fit within the GOP interests as a whole, any more than it fits with those of the democrats. Occassionally Cheney's policy interests match those of the GOP, sometimes they are directly at odds with it. I don't think that Bush policies will be any more at home when he is a democrat called Hillary, anymore than when he was a democrat called Bill.
Finally, Fletch, if you can't post on my threads in the manner in which the subject was intended, but instead bring your counter-intuitive definitions which do not jibe with anything else I have run into in my existance, then please don't post on them at all.
You're free to disagree with me, but what your counter-posts amount to is calling me a political hack and a liar. I think most of the republicans on this forum would back me up here if I said I was a moderate, and a lot of the folks on the left would second that. My loyalty to the GOP is actually quite shakey, as I have pointed out many times. The fact that I would consider a vote for Feingold, and considered one for Dean, show that. I am more solidly a conservative, and if the republican party was more solidly, then it would have my support more solidly.
At the moment, I strongly approve of a couple dozen republican senators and about half a dozen democrats, and more mildly support about twice that number on each side. I would agree with Citizen that Bush is an extremist of some variet, but not extremely conservative, and not at the heart of the GOP, as you seem to imply. I know where I stand, what words mean, and where other folks stand, to a point which satisfies me just fine. This is all old ground, we disagree, and we are not going to agree. For 37 years everyone I've known has used these words, I'm familiar and comfortable with them. I know people in England might use them differently. I'm not discussing English politics here, I'm talking about Bush vs conservatives. If you have something to say, fine, but don't just harang me.
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Sorry Fletch, didn't mean to be so angry, you just tick me off sometimes.
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I wasn't aware we were playing on "your" board in "your" threads. If you don't want a counter opinion then dont post one of your own, it's really that simple. I don't think you stupid, you just do things with language that makes me instinctively distrust your motives. It's a hot button issue with me. If you dont want my response stop pressing the button and use the language as the rest of us do and not to conform with your pre-existant "agenda."
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Quote:
I wasn't aware we were playing on "your" board in "your" threads. If you don't want a counter opinion then dont post one of your own, it's really that simple.
Actually, you follow my posts around like an annoying shadow. Like a politicop.
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I don't think you stupid, you just do things with language that makes me instinctively distrust your motives.
Since my use of language is the completely and unquestioning accepted usage in my neck of the woods that I state objectively, and motive free, as it does not lead to pre-conceived conclusions, and yours does, I find yours suspect. Also, and very importantly:
Since I choose these words, I choose them because they mean what I want to say. If I thought for one minute that they didn't, I would choose different words
If I say "liberal" or "conservative" it's because that's what I mean. If I didn't mean that I would say "Republican" or "Democrat" or "right wing" and "left wing" or "reactionary" and "radical" or any other words which apply to the situation. And you would attack them, because it's what you do. You're a spin doctor. I get that. I am not one. Please try to understand that.
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It's a hot button issue with me. If you dont want my response stop pressing the button and use the language as the rest of us do and not to conform with your pre-existant "agenda."
I have an agenda? This is completely news to me. I was brought up that agenda was a four letter word. I was amazed when Bush openly admitted to having one. An agenda is someone who comes in with a pre-set idea of what he wants to do. Don't think I don't know what words mean mister, I most certainly do. And this is not me. I'm not the guy who came in here with my mind set on a political idea. As I have said countless times, I gain nothing by convincing anyone of anything.
You know, I've been on committees in a few political parties in this country, including one nationally. I've argued politics with people who actually set platform points. And I never had an agenda. This group I came here to talk politics and science fiction with, I certainly don't have one now. Why would I? No one here has any political power whatsoever. No one is setting platform points, no one is voting on committees. There is nothing to accomplish. I'm here to have a conversation with informed people about stuff I care about, and to get their honest opinions.
You royally tick me off.
You try to spin it that I am somehow subverting language. This *is* the language we use. What an arrogant self righteous prick. Your agenda is to silence any opposition voice. I think that an opposition which isn't Bush is threatening to you because Bush is such an easy target.
Conservative is a word, with a definition, that the dictionary accepts, I accept everyone I know accepts, and we use daily. My post was about how this word doesn't describe Bush. I would like to get back to discussing that, and if you're not interested in that, and which I would guess you aren't, then please, for the love of whatever god you worship, get out of my face.
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A little none scientific analysis.
Of 19 threads five are yours, 3 were supposed to be deleted and 11 were everyone else. Since it appears you start around a 1/3 of the threads on the board it's kind of hard to avoid them.
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I love being a conservative. We conservatives are proud of our philosophy. Unlike our liberal friends, who are constantly looking for new words to conceal their true beliefs and are in a perpetual state of reinvention, we conservatives are unapologetic about our ideals. We are confident in our principles and energetic about openly advancing them. We believe in individual liberty, limited government, capitalism, the rule of law, faith, a color-blind society and national security. We support school choice, enterprise zones, tax cuts, welfare reform, faith-based initiatives, political speech, homeowner rights and the war on terrorism. And at our core we embrace and celebrate the most magnificent governing document ever ratified by any nation--the U.S. Constitution. Along with the Declaration of Independence, which recognizes our God-given natural right to be free, it is the foundation on which our government is built and has enabled us to flourish as a people.
- Rush Limbaugh
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