Conservative Policies

POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 01:16
VIEWED: 2425
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DREAMTROVE

Sunday, February 19, 2006 3:33 PM

Okay, I'll bite. Without getting in to an etymological debate again, Conservative. From
the Latin Conservare, to keep fully, to preserve. Also, these

1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
2. Traditional or restrained in style.
3. Moderate; cautious.
4.Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
5. Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.

In what way, if any at all, is Bush/Cheney remotely conservative? Or, for anyone who thinks they might not be, what are they?

Here are some thoughts:

1. On fiscal policy, Bush's "Borrow-and-Spend" is hardly conservative, even remotely.

2. On the environment, there is no effort to conserve, preserve or maintain any modicum of environmental preservation.

3. Socially, there is no effort to maintain the "status quo," something which liberals attack, but my fellow conservatives probably believe in, meaning that people stay working for companies, those companies stay in business.

4. Militarily, there is no conservative approach, which would logically, and has historically meant exerting caution, avoiding direct conflict whenever possible, and making use of diplomacy as opposed to brute force.

5. Legislatively, the preservation of the people's rights, the rule of law, and the old order, have been totally disregarded in favor of something new, untested, unproven, and completely radical..

6. How many times has Bush said "These are different times, changing times, we need to implement new changes" and then introduce radical changes. Is this conservative?

7. Have they ever been restrained about anything? Other than telling the truth? Or do they just go off half cocked on anything at all?

8. Exactly how is the president's energy policy 'Conservative?' How is the idea of increasing fuel consumption on vehicles, which I can prove is public policy, or emptying reserves a conservative principle?

9. How is blank check healthcare even remotely conservative, in not just fiscal terms, but also of maintaining a free non-govt. controlled industry. How about a Bush proposal of early '04 that school children be mandatorily tested and medicated?

10. How is making deals which allow the Chinese communists and islamiic regimes linked to Al Qaeda have sway over US policy, financing and trade in any way even remotely conservative?

Traditional, opposed to change, restrained, moderate, cautious, preservative of natural resources. Is this Bush/Cheney? Or is it the exact opposite of Bush/Cheney?

And, just because I'm beginning to feel this way: Am I the only conservative on this forum?

CHRISISALL

Sunday, February 19, 2006 4:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
And, just because I'm beginning to feel this way: Am I the only conservative on this forum?

On one of those tests I came out Liberal Libertarian, but by what you posted above, I would consider myself a conservative...
*falls to the floor with head in hands*

WHAT AM I?!?

my conservative friends say I'm liberal, my liberal friends find me somewhat conservative...
I'm accused of using a singular 'Chrisisall logic' that I apply to all things...

...my world is crumbling.....

*puts on 'Heart Of Gold'*

There, I'm okay now.

An Island called Chrisisall

RIVER6213

Sunday, February 19, 2006 5:38 PM

hmmm...

GEEZER

Sunday, February 19, 2006 5:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Okay, I'll bite. Without getting in to an etymological debate again, Conservative. From
the Latin Conservare, to keep fully, to preserve. Also, these

1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
2. Traditional or restrained in style.
3. Moderate; cautious.
4.Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
5. Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.

But only one of these definitions applies here:
4.Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.

Define the American political philosophy of conservatism as practiced in the early 21st century, and then compare the Bush/Cheney record against it and you might have a discussion. Otherwise it's just an apples and oranges thing.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, February 19, 2006 8:22 PM

Quote:

But only one of these definitions applies here:
4.Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.

Define the American political philosophy of conservatism as practiced in the early 21st century, and then compare the Bush/Cheney record against it and you might have a discussion. Otherwise it's just an apples and oranges thing.

Good God Geezer.

That was more appalling a definition than I possibly could have hoped to get as an answer. You're idea of conservative dates all the way back to the early 21st century????????????

WTF???????

Whatever happened to the idea of Conservative philosophy, being of the modern democratic era? I mean, from the founding fathers forward, there has never been a need to rewrite the meaning of the word conservative, and there sure as hell isn't now. That's why it's conservative. If it conserves anything, it conserves itself.

What you mean is neoconism. But a neocon is nothing more than a slang term used by one socialist, Michael Harrington, against another socialist, Irving Kristol, who later took it for his own. But neoconservative is just a socialst who 'supports' the conservative movement, meaning that they will vote for RTL, or privatization. That doesn't in itself make them conservatives.

At all.

It doesn't even mean they claim to be conservatives.

Just because there is something new called neocon, doesn't mean that conservative itself ceases to exist.

The philosophy of conservatism refered to is not that of neoconservatism.

Fortunately, there is no need to argue the point, the dictionary entry expounded on the position, as I'm sure any other would to the same effect

1. The inclination, especially in politics, to maintain the existing or traditional order.
2. A political philosophy or attitude emphasizing respect for traditional institutions, distrust of government activism, and opposition to sudden change in the established order.
3. Conservatism The principles and policies of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or of the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
4. Caution or moderation, as in behavior or outlook.

[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

conservatism

1. The inclination, especially in politics, to maintain the existing or traditional order.
2. A political philosophy or attitude emphasizing respect for traditional institutions, distrust of government activism, and opposition to sudden change in the established order.
3. Caution or moderation, as in behavior or outlook.
4. A political or theological orientation advocating the preservation of the best in society and opposing radical changes.

It's painfully clear what we're talking about here.

Geezer,

Your position is like that of Christians who say "The actual words of the actual Jesus are irrelevant, the only thing which matters are what the image of Jesus in the revelation of Saint John the Divine said and did." Which is their position. But that doesn't mean that Christianity in the classic sense doesn't still exist and doesn't outnumber neo-christians by a margin of at least 20:1. Because neo-chsitianity isn't Christianity, it's Johnism, or Paulism.

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, February 19, 2006 8:24 PM

Chris,

I think you're solidly in the middle.

You're probably like Jefferson who said he was a liberal conservative. I remember a couple weeks ago Tony Blair was making fun of some member of British Parliment for saying the same, and Tony was clearly unaware that it had ever been said before.

FLETCH2

Sunday, February 19, 2006 8:43 PM

DT, I'm afraid Geezer is right. There are lots of English words that have multiple meanings, when using a dictionary you have to pick the context in which the word is used. In this case it is in the political context. However, way back when someone chose the word to label their political movement they probably chose it to reflect their overal philosophy.

I suspect

1. Favoring traditional views and values;

was probably the meaning they saught when picking the name.

FLETCH2

Sunday, February 19, 2006 9:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Chris,

I think you're solidly in the middle.

You're probably like Jefferson who said he was a liberal conservative. I remember a couple weeks ago Tony Blair was making fun of some member of British Parliment for saying the same, and Tony was clearly unaware that it had ever been said before.

You have to be carefull because both Liberal and Conservative (capitalised) are party names in the UK. As used in party names they represent the political platform of that party not nescessarily a "pure" version of the underlying political ideology.

So if you call someone a Liberal Conservative and he happens to be a LibDem what you are really saying is that he campaigns as a Liberal (with all of the political platform that represents) but acts like a Conservative (ditto.) If the guy was a Conservative then the same idea applies except then it's more of an insult.

The Liberal party in it's various forms has been out of national political power for nearly 80 years they tend to be seen as well intentioned but ineffectual, soft and wishy-washy. Saying a Conservative has Liberal leanings is a little like saying "you are the diet coke of evil, just one calorie, not quite evil enough."

STARSONG

Sunday, February 19, 2006 9:30 PM

I think some of the rest of the trouble with thinking of "conservative" along the lines of "conserve" is that the term seems to pre-date many things that have since become institutionalized, for better or worse.

Likewise, in the US, "Liberal" doesn't mean anything close to what it did in the last century, when it referred to paired belief in individual liberty and more-or-less lassaiz-faire economics.. beliefs much more common among those calling themselves conservative today. Anyhow, there was some definate snarking about the "hijacking" of the word liberal long about the 1920s to mean something more along the lines of progressivism/"socialism lite."

(Source -- "Commanding Heights" - economic history book, mostly 20th century)

Language is a slippery thing.. its amazing what things you can read from even a century ago and find you don't really understand as well as you thought.. and on the other hand, good actors can make 400 year old dialog from The Bard understandable.

Gorram confusing sometimes, ain't it? :)

GEEZER

Sunday, February 19, 2006 9:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
(Conservative =)
1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
(or)
5. Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.

---

2. On the environment, there is no effort (by Bush inc.) to conserve, preserve or maintain any modicum of environmental preservation.

Okay, let's play word games, then. Traditional values towards the environment = dig it up and cut it down. So you do consider Bush inc. Conservative per definition #1?

Just for fun, I searched the 2004 GOP Presidential platform, and did a cursory look at the GOP website, and didn't see the word "conservative" once. So why are we wondering if Bush is a Conservative (by any definition) anyway?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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