Real World Event Discussions

An analysis of the illusion of freedom

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Friday, April 24, 2026 16:13
VIEWED: 7512
PAGE 2 of 9

CITIZEN

Thursday, February 16, 2006 9:32 PM

The law is like the doors to a rich Hotel.

Open to everyone...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

PIRATENEWS

Thursday, February 16, 2006 9:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

A police officer can pull you over and give you a ticket almost any time for almost any thing. There are so many traffic laws that you can't not break some every time you drive.

The Constitution itself was written at a time when slavery was acceptable. Even a great document like that can be 'interpreted' to curtail freedom...

The Constitution legalized slavery, involuntary servitude for prisoners, and voluntary servitude for everybody else via its Contract Clause. Today, contracts are used to perpetually enslave the sheeple, both private and governMENTAL.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Yeah, so there is only one choice, in politics, which is the primary.

The only way we had to vote against people like this is to vote in the primary. Now, of course, voting is not power, it's the illusion of power, even so, in a totally open field. This is because you're power to vote can be monitored via opinion polls and the like and then supplanted by a machine which is buying votes. The only way to do beat it is to organize. A group of organized people who don't honestly answer polls are the only sure way to trick the machine.

Black Box voting machines "flip" votes, so a loser (Bush) with 20% of the vote becomes a "winner" with 80% of the vote. No audit trail allowed, since that's "proprietary" business records.

Sheeple voters are so dumbed down they don't realize they have the power to vote EVERY DAY. Just one letter or phone call to a politician, to complain about a law, is worth 13,000 votes on election day. The People are the fourth branch of government - "We The People". Registered voters on jury duty can veto any law. Ballot box, jury box, bullet box - study the "Battle of Athens" Tennessee after World War 2, when 100 veterans opened fire on the sheriff's dept for election fraud. Citizens are mere slaves if they don't use they power of Citizen's Arrest against their Gangsta Govt.

Quote:
"Mr. Speaker, my subject today is whether America is a police state. If we are, what are we going to do about it? Most police states, surprisingly, come about through the democratic process with majority support. The masses are easily led to believe that security and liberty are mutually exclusive, and demand for security far exceeds that for liberty. Our government already keeps close tabs on just about everything we do and requires official permission for nearly all of our activities. One might take a look at our Capitol for any evidence of a police state. We see: barricades, metal detectors, police, military soldiers at times, dogs, ID badges required for every move, vehicles checked at airports and throughout the Capitol. The people are totally disarmed, except for the police and the criminals. But worse yet, surveillance cameras in Washington are everywhere to ensure our safety. Like gun control, people control hurts law-abiding citizens much more than the law-breakers. Centralized control and regulations are required in a police state. Not only do we need a license to drive, but we also need special belts, bags, buzzers, seats and environmentally dictated speed limits. Or a policeman will be pulling us over to levy a fine, and he will be toting a gun for sure. Let's reject the police state."
—Congressman Dr. Ron Paul, MD (R-TX, 1988 Libertarian Party candidate for President), speech in House of Representatives, United States Congress, "Are We Doomed To Be a Police State?" June 27, 2002
www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr062702.htm

"I don't trust government. And neither should our citizens."
—US Senator Larry Craig, United States Senate, Committee on the Judiciary, "DOJ Oversight: Terrorism and Other Topics", testimony by US Attorney General John Ashcroft re President George Bush Jr.'s Executive Orders to "legalize torture" of US citizens for ALL "crimes" including "victimless 'crimes'", and refusal to release that memo (felony Contempt of Congress), C-SPAN2, June 8, 2004

"I saw two officers as before, who rode up to me, with their pis

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CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 16, 2006 9:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
The law is like the doors to a rich Hotel.

Open to everyone...

Incredibly well put (and a lot shorter than my initial post

).

Not too concise Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Thursday, February 16, 2006 9:46 PM

Can't take credit for it, it's a Lord Bernard Shaw Quote (I think).

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

PIRATENEWS

Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:10 PM

Quote:
"Written laws, which were like spider's webs, and would catch, it is true, the weak and the poor, but easily be broken by the mighty and the rich."
-Anacharis, Plutarch Lives, Life of Solon (600BC)

I disagree with this statement, as it applies to USA today, in that if the weak and poor can read, they can walk into a public law library or go online at a public library, for "free", read the law for themselves, and represent themselves pro se in court, and do an excellent job for themselves. It's the stupid, gullible, ignernt and lazy who suffer the most in court today, regardless of wealth, regardless of whether they pay a lawyer big bucks.

This is why schools refuse to teach pro se law the the sheeple, since that would disrupt the slave plantation.

Traffic tickets, and especially parking tickets, are an excellent way for citizens to practice their pro se skills, "in the shallow end of the pool". Then, when a big legal problem arises, they can make intelligent decisions about their case.

Before TeeVee, folks watched REAL trials at the local courthouse. The Idiotbox censors Rules of Procedure from the sheeple, so when they try to play People's Court in Real Court, they get their butts kicked.

The purpose of the One-Eyed-Cyclops-Of-Death is to brainwash the sheeple that they must confess all their victimless-crimes to every cop they meet, then plead guilty to every non-crime - that it's actually unpatriotic to put up a legal defense using the Constitutions and The Law as the Founding Fathers intended. Suckers!

ZISKER

Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:26 PM

This analysis, of course, assumes that a modern capitalist system (or any modern system, really) is in place. How do we define freedom in modern terms? In America, and most of the world, there is an "Alliance" in that we can't pick up our toys, walk away and say we're not playing anymore. Even if you join a commune that community is subject to law, even if you become a drifter or a hermit, the laws are still able to control movement and living situations. In fact, these days removing yourself from the system seems to further deprive you of freedom as it hinders you from earning enough money to defend yourself legally - even if you devote weeks and months to preparing your case, the average individual is no match for a corporation's team of lawyers.

Take, for instance, the case of the college student who set up a free network for his college and enable students to use Napster on it. He was sued by the record industry for doing so and his lawyer told him that he was being sued wrongfully, and would eventually win, but did he have the funds to be in and out of court for the next fifteen years? No. So he had to settle and fork over the few tens of thousands he had saved for college to a billion-dollar industry.

Where I grew up a man was discovered living in an underground bunker in some patch of woods - he wasn't hurting anyone and was able to provide for himself, but they evicted him nonetheless. When a supermarket opened a quarter of a mile down the road from where I lived. The chain supermarket could afford to lobby for the township to widen the road - so emminent domain was used to take a piece of our property for commercial purposes. Is there freedom for the individual or the corporation in this country? Call me bias, but I think freedom applies only when there can be financial gains. We're a capitalist society.

But it's not just the government's fault that this happens, the citizens are complicit accomplises. In exchange for our freedoms, we receive comfort and commodities. Look at the 'choices' that have been listed in this thread alone: brand names. We don't always consider non-commodity choices, do we even concieve of them in our consumer society?

So far as the nature of government is concerned, doesn't it inherently limit our freedom? If the law restricted no one, the world might be a terrifying place depending on your general outlook on human nature. But we do have laws and therefore civilization. Civilization requires regulation to function - only now, we're starting to run out of pressure valves. There's no west to run to anymore, no place where a person can head for the hills, so to speak, when they're unhappy with the way things are (which is why we need to colonize other planets, but that's another rant for another day ). Law and commerce - commerce more so than law (it amazes me that while the regulations concerning credit card collection agencies are regulated on a national basis, laws for capital crimes are not) - bind us within society. If you find yourself in debt, you are trapped in this country no matter where you go, and the situation is only getting stickier.

. . .wow. Sorry, I don't know where that came from. To sum it up: Freedom (in the modern sense) is the ability to throw your toys down, say "I'm not playing anymore" and walk away. And we don't have that. I'll shut up now

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams

SIGNYM

Friday, February 17, 2006 1:26 AM

Free software,free society.

Free as in freedom, not beer.

HARDWARE

Friday, February 17, 2006 2:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for dinner.

Liberty is a well armed lamb disputing the majority decision.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

LOL

Did you think of that or is it a well known saying? love it

I believe the attribution is Benjamin Franklin.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

HAYWARD79

Friday, February 17, 2006 5:31 AM

"The Constitution legalized slavery, involuntary servitude for prisoners, and voluntary servitude for everybody else via its Contract Clause. Today, contracts are used to perpetually enslave the sheeple, both private and governMENTAL."

The Constitution, by the amendment process of Article V, also allowed for the situation is which slavery could become illegal, as exemplified by the 13th-15th Amendment. It's interesting and telling that you don't mention this. You also might want to review some of the more modern jurisprudence concerning the Contracts Clause, because your current conception of that clause is...how do I put this...outdated. Additionally, almost all legal theorists universally hold to the idea that the Contracts Clause actually acts as a significant impediment to governmental power.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I'm an attorney, recently graduated from law school who specializes in constitutional law, so when I read something like your post, I am obliged to jump on it, lest other people accept what you're saying at face value.

As a matter of advice, if you really want people to take you seriously, you really should dispense with the "sheeple" rhetoric. Whenever you have to resort to this kind of language, you paint yourself as more than a bit of an elitist.

Additionally, as someone who has actually spent time living abroad and studying comparative legal systems (including China), it's very odd to hear you so adamantly refer to the US as a police State. Relative to what, exactly? Relative to your idealized conception of a completely free society without restrictions? Such a comparison holds aboslutely no substance. Here's a suggestion for some reading: Thomas Hobbes's "Leviathan" and just about anything by John Locke.

KHYRON

Friday, February 17, 2006 5:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hayward79:
I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I'm an attorney, recently graduated from law school who specializes in constitutional law, so when I read something like your post, I am obliged to jump on it, lest other people accept what you're saying at face value.

Anybody that accepts what PirateNews says at face value must be fairly demented to start off with.