Objects In Space.

POSTED BY: Bishop
UPDATED: Saturday, January 31, 2004 04:45
VIEWED: 12725
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BISHOP

Thursday, September 11, 2003 7:18 PM

In response to ManiacNumberOne, I actually normally go by the name Bishop Ebonhand as it is my staff nic for the free UO shards I run, but fireflyfans doesnt allow spaces/underscores/dashes in usernames so I just shortened it :/

MANIACNUMBERONE

Thursday, September 11, 2003 7:59 PM

I didn't think all of Rivers scenes wherein she's overhearing thoughts were of the same caliber. What I mean is, I don't think they are all the same kind of visions. When Simon/Kaylee are talking, River gets from Simon something like "I'd be there right now" which reflects how his situation is in direct relation to Rivers predicament, but the vision-statment fits into the story he was telling Kaylee. I thought Jayne's thoughts were a direct mind-reading by River, and Book's was a response to That reading. It seems the same way with Mal/Inara as with Book/Jayne, River seems to be picking up on what the other characters want to say to each other, but for whatever reason they cannot do so. Inara's thought was directed at Mal, and Mal's back at her, but neither had any realization. I believe only Simon's thought was actually triggered by her. I should clarify what I mean when I say "thought" - I believe that it's possible that some of the character's "thoughts" are ones which they are not even aware they are having. I mean, I think those thoughts aren't on the forefront of their mind's when we hear River hear them. I believe the person who is being read by River is totally unaware that they have been having the thoughts they had.

BISHOP

Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:03 PM

I can agree with that. Its curious though, Mal's response to Inara. "It doesnt mean a damn thing".

MANIACNUMBERONE

Thursday, September 11, 2003 9:04 PM

Fortunately we will get more to that scene in the upcoming dvd, which I am certain will explain more about that. Personally, I think Mal is doing 2 things... making a general observation about the meaninglessness of everything, and specifically thinking about Inara and their relationship as it has changed since he slept with Nandi. He may be thinking that it doesn't matter that he slept with Nandi, because Inara and he were a hopeless cause anyway. Inara is a companion so it's likely that Mal is getting a subtle revenge on her. They are not the traditional courting couple.

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Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
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SHEWHOHATHAPEN

Thursday, September 11, 2003 9:26 PM

I'm in the camp that believes that each thought River read was related to something different. In fact, I'm not convinced that any of the thoughts River picked up were directed towards her at all. Mostly because no one actually acknowledges River's presence at all until she has the gun. She walks into the common area where Simon and Kaylee are and actually moves towards them, then retreats once she reads Simon. She walks through the mess right past Book and Jayne where they would have to have seen her, yet their conversation goes on just as it had before she entered. She stands right down the catwalk in clear view of Mal and Inara, then runs frantically down the stairs with no acknowledgement. In fact, the fact that no one notices her makes me think that she wasn't physically there at all. I think that there was some hint that perhaps River is capable of astral projection in War Stories when she declares to Simon that when she was well she "heard with [her] ears" obviously a reference to normally being telepathic and as such hearing not with her ears but with her mind, which would leave her "walked on [her] feet" comment as a possible allusion to "travelling" in some other manner. Also, her not physically having been wandering amongst the crew would help to explain how she got the gun. I could almost believe that while River's astral self was wandering Serenity her body was dressing, walking straight to the weapon's locker, getting a gun and proceeding to the cargo bay. I think at any rate it's quite obvious that the gun wasn't just sitting on the floor, locked and loaded.

But anyway on to giving a rundown of how I saw each instance of mind-reading.

Simon- "I'd be there right now." This is the one that seems most obviously to be something directed specifically at River. But for reasons previously mentioned, I don't think it was. I believe that that thought was triggered in Simon's mind by his conversation with Kaylee about his Medacad exploits. Naturally, as he's fondly remebering somewhere in his mind he carried the thought that if not for this or that he'd still be there. Now, to look at how he said it. He's expression, the fact that he, in my mind, was the only one who actually looked directly at River, was definitely accusatory. But I think that was because River feels guilty and she was able to pick up on the fact that Simon does in some part blame her for everything he's lost. As evidenced by his Freudian slip later in the episode where he tells Kaylee that he'd be there "if she hadn't... [looks guiltily at the floor] if they had just left her alone." Simon is obviously having an internal conflict. He wants to blame the Blue Hands and only the Blue Hands but logic dictates that if River had not reached out to him and begged him to save her then he might not be in his current predicament. He also feels terrible that he harbors that feeling, but it's still there. River knows so I think that the accusatory tone in her reading of him was in part from her own guilt and in part from his actual feelings of that nature. SO I guess my thesis here would be that since we very definitely saw that scene from River's POV that we need to keep in mind that the things River reads from other people's minds and how she perceives may be affected by her own emotions.

Jayne- "I got stupid. The money was too good." This to me is a demonstration of the fact that Jayne has not forgotten about Ariel. He can't and he probably never will. He's nervous and maybe even feels guilty about it. That is his excuse. He got stupid. It was the money. Not directed at River, even though it's in part about River, but more just something that lingers in his mind all the time, floating just below the surface.

Book- "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?" This I read as having nothing to do with River or anyone else on Serenity at all. In fact, I took this very much as a memory. Book is very clearly looking downward, even though there's no one there. It seemed to have the feeling of an inter

VETERAN

Thursday, September 11, 2003 10:04 PM

I agree, with the exception of Simon, none of what River reads of her shipmates' thoughts are directed at her.

I'm not sure if Book is remembering a past interrogation or berating himself. I tend to think it's the latter. Maybe shedding some light on why he became a Man of the Cloth.

ZENCAT

Friday, September 12, 2003 12:35 AM

SheWhoHathAPen (and I just now figured out that that isn't your "Egyptian name") I agree almost completely with your interpretation of River's visions and whatnot. This is how I saw it too. I think there are a lot of layers to what everyone was thinking, even Jayne, he of few layers. It seemed clear to me that her physical body was "walking on her feet" and getting the gun, while her "spirit self" was roaming the ship, perhaps unwilling to bear witness to what her hands were doing. Further, I think that that "split" of her conscious mind from her unconscious intent reveals the conflict River is experiencing over the violence she committed. (This sort of split of the conscious and unconscious mind, apart from the psychic angle, has been documented in mental patients many times, for example in people who do something, like tear off the clothing, that they are consciously unaware of doing, and even deny while they're doing it.) It's a wonderful bit of writing, showing River's distress and confusion over what she has become in a way that's totally unique to the character. Part of her, the physical part that's capable of direct action, acts out the conflict by finding and loading the gun, while the "feeling" part of her leaves, walks away from that internal conflict to wander in the place where she feels safest. But the things that she finds in her home make her feel unsafe - Simon and Kaylee's hidden anger towards her, Jayne's betrayal, Book's ferocity, Mal and Inara's despair-even the passion between Zoe and Wash, though a pleasant emotion, was disturbing. She flees from the "crowd" in her mind to the only place there is to go - back to her self, and at that point, she's still not able/willing to see the object she's holding for what it is. She speaks to herself - "It's just an object. It's not what you think" - as if to comfort herself. (The imagery of the fallen autumn leaves and the broken twig are very evocative, to me, of River's crushed innocence.) What do you think of what she tells Mal? "She understands. She doesn't comprehend." Which "she" is speaking, and what is she talking about?

KAYTHRYN

Friday, September 12, 2003 12:48 AM

This isn't at all thought out, but I always just figured that Kaylee didn't speak up because she didn't have any guilty/angry/upset kind of thoughts in her head at the time. She's a very happy person.

When I first saw OiS I figured that what River saw was everyone’s secrets, or things they just didn't talk about. Mal and Inara's thoughts on their relationship, Simon wishing that River hadn't messed up his life, something from Books unknown past, Jayne's betrayal, and well, Wash and Zoë didn't quite fit in my little theory, but that made me think Kaylee didn't have any secrets she was embarrassed about. She certainly had things in her past that might possibly embarrass someone else, but not her.

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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

TZEGHA

Friday, September 12, 2003 1:45 AM

"She understands. She doesn't comprehend."

I just took that to meant that she was aware of the existence of her confusion and ignorance.

She understands the fact that she doesn't comprehend what these things mean, or why the gun was a stick. But that doesn't make her confusion any less, or any more clear.

Knowing that the water is muddy doesn't allow you to see to the bottom.

Maybe?

GOATUS

Friday, September 12, 2003 2:37 AM

I thought she was just crazy.
hehe

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