Our Mission in Iraq

POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Thursday, June 12, 2025 06:42
VIEWED: 5443
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DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, February 14, 2006 6:14 AM

Yeah, the new neocon mideast union is a democracy, that''s the plan, but if we're even going to debate this, people have to admit that this is what the debate is about, and that it's not about the war on terror.

But I think Tony wanted a little piece of empire back.

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, February 14, 2006 6:39 AM

Okay, it's struck me that all my renewed antipathy towards Bush is going to provoke a reaction, which it wasn't really intended to do. Here's my problems with Bush in a nutshell.

1. The Budget. I thought a GOP administration would mean four things economically:
a) A return to and passage of the balanced budget amendment. Instead I got budget deficits larger than some small planets.
b) a reduction of payroll taxes to make america more competitive with asia. Instead I got very slight impact on fed inc tax and higher payments for big moma medicare, and the overall impact was payroll taxes went up.
c) Support for american business and initiatives, like stem cell research, alternative energies, information tech. Instead, most of this development is in asia, and bush has attacked all of these sectors at home.
d) A good Bull Market. Instead, it's been a raging bear brought on by an ever-sinking dollar brought on by huge deficit spending, and major american corporations are being sold to saudis, germans and chinese communists, and others are going benkrupt.

2. I thought this would mean an end to serial war. Clinton managed to have military conflicts running at all times, and touched every corner of the globe with them. I thought this was globally destabilizing and thought it would stop. Amazingly, it stepped up. Now everyone hates us.

3. I thought that we would see an end to harsh anti-conservationist policies of the Clinton Admin, and instead, they're getting worse. I was pleasantly surprised by Bush's 2000 campaign position on automobile polution. I didn't expect this from people with oil connections. It never occurred to me that he was just lying.

4. I expected a little more respect for the constitution, less of this, I can do whatever I want. Limited govt. That sort of thing.

Now, US savings have just dipped below zero. This is the definition of depression. A recession is when savings go down, and a depression is when they are actually negative, as in debt.

I think it's a naive position to say "depressions happen" because it's pretty easy to look and see how Hoover caused the depression in the 1930s.

So now I have:

1. Poverty, Depression and Debt, Trillions of Dollars in Debt.

2. The wholesale irreversible environmental catastrophe and the possible ultimate destruction of the Earth.

3. An endless war with the entire world, and terrorist recruitment so high that the man who wants us most dead is more popular than Jesus.

4. A govt. so huge and invasive that it is beginning to rival if not a socialist state, at least a paranoid monarchy.

5. A leader who not only lies constantly, cannot be expected to understand the world situation, or even simply things like words or numbers.

6. A govt. that simply does not care about defending America, and can't be bothered to respond to a natural disaster.

Now I'm not saying that Bush/Cheney are directly responsible for all of these things, but it was their job to see that none of it happen. Now, they have both contributed to each of these things, and in no way have slowed their coming in to being.

Since this is the case, I humbly suggest that we now fire them from that job we hired them to do, and find someone else to do the job. I'm not saying elect a democrat, I'd presonally prefer a normal, sane, republican. Someone like Dick Lugar or John Warner.

But at the moment, I'll take an actual trained monkey if someone has one available. I guess I've become the anyone but Bush republican. Or maybe the *anything* but Bush republican. Okay, not Bin Laden. But an American trained monkey. A dog, even, if it were something smart like a border collie, and not a mini-pinscher. Forest Gump. A school of goldfish. A giant spider. Cthulu. Even a third party candidate.

FLETCH2

Tuesday, February 14, 2006 7:51 AM

Vote Cthulu! -- Why settle for the lesser of two evils?

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Who cares about predictable. The objections to Saddam Hussein were pretty obvious, he was a vicious killer. Not-vicious killer is an easy standard to meet.

Evidently, you do.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
. . . and the people of Iraq would be signing up to fight for us instead of the terrorists, and then we would not need any more boots on the ground. We would have them, Iraqi boots.

That is exactly what is happening. And it very likely may not have happened without coalition personnel in the field to lead the way.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
No, it's not. It's really really not.

I suppose the war against Japan wasn’t part of World War II. You can disagree with the strategy of the Iraq campaign as affecting the goals of what you think the War on Terror should include, but to suggest that it is some “neo-con” conspiracy is simply revisionist history.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, February 14, 2006 3:55 PM

Finn,

Quote:
I suppose the war against Japan wasn’t part of World War II.

It wasn't part of the war against Germany. It was FDR and Truman having a wargasm over Pearl Harbor, doing exactly what Tojo, who was insane, and hated by Hirohito, who was pressured into appointing him, wanted us to do.

Quote:
You can disagree with the strategy of the Iraq campaign as affecting the goals of what you think the War on Terror should include, but to suggest that it is some “neo-con” conspiracy is simply revisionist history.

No, it's not. This idea that the Cheney plan do invade Iraq, which he devised in the 70s and strategically planned out for decades, even to the point of losing his temper at G.H.W. Bush for not invading Iraq. This is Cheney and PNAC who could not make even one (1) mention of terrorism prior to 9/11.

The idea that this premeditated act somehow fit perfectly into the new paradigm of a battle against Al Qaeda is pure fantasy.

Not even a shred more. Al Qaeda was hated by Saddam, and they hated him. At the moment, things have worked out perfectly for Al Qaeda, their enemy Saddam deposed, and now they, Al Qaeda, control the majority fo territory in Iraq, which has become a major recruiting ground for them.

The whole thing is a godsend to Osama Bin Laden.

Go team.

Now, While I'm at it, I want to mention a few things I forgot to slam the Bush Admin for:

1. Torture.
2. The Patriot Act.
3. Doing nothing on North Korea

I'm sure I'll think of more.

I'm leaving out all the stuff I basically agree with. I don't think no child left behind is a bad idea, it's sometimes badly done, I think privatization of social security would be excellent, but they haven't actually gotten anywhere with that. I think the tax cuts were a good idea *if* they could have reduced spending to match.

Still not as bad as Kerry, but really really bad.

Cheney seems to be trigger happy in addition to paranoid and delusional.

I have this to say to my fellow republicans: This is *good enough*? Raise your standards people. Better than Clinton, which has become debateable, is stll not anywhere near acceptable.

Teddy Roosevelt, Taft, Coolidge, Eisenhower, Nixon, These were great men.

Harding, (okay, not Hoover) Ford, Reagan, Bush Sr., these were at least good men.

At this moment, we have a completely republican controlled govt. If we depose Bush right now, we can have anyone we want. Any republican president you want, any republican policies.

Now, given that this is the reality of the situation, you *still* would choose Bush? Are you brain dead? Just the spending alone, to say nothing of civil liberties and the rest of it,

Here are some other names to throw out, see if anyone thinks they might be better men than Dick Cheney.

Colin Powell
John McCain
Larry Craig
John Sununu
Chuck Hagel
Lincoln Chafee
John Warner
Lindsay Graham
Richard Lugar

And some women

Olympia Snowe
Susan Collins

just off the top of my head.

Virtually any republican on the Senate Floor.

If we had a democratic controlled govt., I would understand if the situation was such that ousting Bush would lead to a democrat, but it wouldn't. It would lead to a republican who would have two and a half years to prove himself or herself before running for re-election. Cheney has a popularity of 25%, there is no way he can run for the presidency, and he's announced that he wouldn't.

You really truly and sincerely believe that Dick Cheney is the best man for the job? That it's worth sacraficing your own freedom, and fortune to huge deficit spending because you really believe in a global social revolution through serial warfare?

Or is there maybe someone else in the GOP you like better than Cheney.

CARTOON

Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:12 PM

I am now convinced that apparently some minors have access to computers, and are speaking of things about which they know absolutely nothing.

The biggest problem with the U.S.A. is that we give a damn about what happens to people in other countries.

I have relatives who fought, and I know people who were maimed and killed fighting to free Europe and Asia from militaristic barbarians who'd just as well rape, kill, burn and steal everything that wasn't nailed down.

Ask the people of Korea, Manchuria, Hong Kong, the Philippines and everywhere in between if they were grateful we stopped the militaristic Japanese agression.

Ask the people of western Europe (those who were actually alive at the time -- unfortunately, it seems that all the generations after that have either forgotten or become the most damnable ingrates this world has ever seen) about what Hitler did to their people and countries. Ask the 9,000,000 murdered civilians (6 million of whom were Jews -- approximately half the Jewish population of the world at that time).

(BTW, I've personally spoken with several holocaust survivors. Ask them if they appreciate Hitler being stopped, and then ask them why they've chosen to live HERE in the U.S.A. instead elsewhere in the world).

Ask the Soviet Union (who lost more people than all of the other nations in the war combined), and had a third of their country overrun by madmen, if the Nazi's had to be stopped. (And the U.S. certainly didn't defeat Germany alone -- it needed both the U.S.S.R. and Britain, so I'm not overlooking their essential contributions.)

I can only surmise that from some of the outlandish theories I've seen espoused in this forum that the posters are either unlearned, or have been indoctrinated by leftist idiots who condemn this country while simultaneously enjoying the richest of its rewards, freedoms and protections (-- which they certainly wouldn't be afforded were they speaking from any of the nations of the middle east, as well as parts of Africa and the far east).

I'm serving notice, I'll no longer read any post by anyone who badmouths this country with delusional conspiracy crap. Fair criticism, is one thing... as this country (and its President) is far from perfect. But, these ridiculous, way-out-of-left-field "Bush is behind the British bringing slaves from Africa to the western hemisphere in the 17th century" conspiracy-type fantasies, no!

If I wanted far-fetched fiction, I'd read The Inquirer.

P.S. This post has been heavily edited. I was a bit more irate with my initial response.

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, February 14, 2006 7:24 PM

Cartoon

Quote:
I am now convinced that apparently some minors have access to computers, and are speaking of things about which they know absolutely nothing.

Wow, there's something worse than mindless rhetoric.

Quote:
The biggest problem with the U.S.A. is that we give a damn about what happens to people in other countries.

For a moment, I thought I was going to agree with you on something.

Quote:
I have relatives who fought, and I know people who were maimed and killed fighting to free Europe and Asia from militaristic barbarians who'd just as well rape, kill, burn and steal everything that wasn't nailed down.

Okay. This changes nothing. I have a couple of friends who were killed in war, a couple who were wounded. Oddly, that doesn't earn my support for the idea. Just irrational I guess.

Quote:
Ask the people of Korea, Manchuria, Hong Kong, the Philippines and everywhere in between if they were grateful we stopped the militaristic Japanese agression.

Many of those subjects of Japanese agression, as a result of our actions, became subjects of Chinese agression, which btw, if you've forgotten, was more brutal, and some 5 million in those areas alone were killed. We of course didn't do it to stop Japanese agression, which could have been done much easier, but I would even question whether or not it should have been done. Japan has been our ally for 150 years. At this point, for 85 or so, and it would have logically followed that we would have allied ourselves with Japan, and tried to dissuade them from some of the paths they were starting down. Certainly there was no reason for an outright war with Japan. Who are still our allies, in spite of it all.

Quote:
Ask the people of western Europe (those who were actually alive at the time -- unfortunately, it seems that all the generations after that have either forgotten or become the most damnable ingrates this world has ever seen) about what Hitler did to their people and countries. Ask the 9,000,000 murdered civilians (6 million of whom were Jews -- approximately half the Jewish population of the world at that time).

No one is challenging the decision to go to war with the Nazis in WWII, since, after all, they started that war, they were the orcs. I don't think anyone is questioning the decision ot go to war to defend Kuwait, though on a smaller scale, for the same reason.

Quote:
(BTW, I've personally spoken with several holocaust survivors. Ask them if they appreciate Hitler being stopped, and then ask them why they've chosen to live HERE in the U.S.A. instead elsewhere in the world).

My father's entire extended family was killed in the holocaust. I don't think I'm ready to hear a lecture on the subject.

Quote:
Ask the Soviet Union (who lost more people than all of the other nations in the war combined), and had a third of their country overrun by madmen, if the Nazi's had to be stopped. (And the U.S. certainly didn't defeat Germany alone -- it needed both the U.S.S.R. and Britain, so I'm not overlooking their essential contributions.)

Again, no one is argueing whether or not orcs should be stopped. But orcs aren't always German. Anyway, I also did study history for many years, I am aware of all of this. This doesn't mean we can't turn into orcs if we're not careful.

I would also offer that the USSR which became a monster itself, was stopped through soft power and diplomacy. Aside for the occasional misunderstanding, there was not a shot fired between the Soviet Union from its formation in 1927 to its fall in 1991. And to say that the USSR represented a threat to the world which dwarfed all the enemies we face today seem be so obvious it would not need saying.

Quote:
I can only surmise that from some of the outlandish theories I've seen espoused in this forum that the posters are either unlearned, or have been indoctrinated by leftist idiots who condemn this country while simultaneously enjoying the richest of its rewards, freedoms and protections (-- which they certainly w

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AURAPTOR

Tuesday, February 14, 2006 9:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
May very well be an excessive act of brutality, as does happen in war.
Well, that didn't take long. I had hoped to see more personal, real life comments here, instead of the standard political rhetoric.

I guess all's fair.

:dissapointed:Chrisisall

Why don't you just shut the hell up ? My post was relevent to the thread. Jesusfuckinchrist.....

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, February 14, 2006 9:58 PM

Quote:
Why don't you just shut the hell up ? My post was relevent to the thread. Jesusfuckinchrist.

Well, that didn't take long. I had hoped to see more standard political rhetoric, instead of the
personal, real life comments here.

Auraptor, it was intended as humor, don't blown up at Chris.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
It wasn't part of the war against Germany.

So what? I didn’t say anything about Germany.

Any time there is a belligerent foreign rogue state there will always be people within the world powers who favor force as a solution, and there will always be purpose in preparing for the possibility of armed conflict. The same was true during the Hoover and Roosevelt Administration when the Japanese seized Manchuria from the Chinese. But does the fact that some people may have prepared to respond to Japanese aggression in 1932 with force mean that the Pacific Campaign was not a part of World War II?

But whether or not there were proposed strategies for the invasion of Iraq before 9/ll doesn't change the importance of Iraq in the War on Terror. A key source of Islamic terrorism is the disillusionment and turmoil created by unstable totalitarian regimes and belligerent brutal dictators that control the Middle East, in fact it is probably the principle source. The implementation of an Islamic Republic that would spread democratic ideals to Middle Eastern states and presumably alleviate the main source or a large part of terrorist recruitment is a strong motivation for the Iraq Campaign. Iraq was a perfect choice for this experiment since it was clearly an unstable totalitarian state run by a madman with clear ties to terrorism and terrorist factions, including Al Qaeda. Iraq had made itself a target of the world powers when it invaded Kuwait and thereafter refused to recognize cease fire agreements and constantly harassed the weapon’s inspection program. This meant that action against Iraq was legal under international law and the ceasefire agreements. Iraq is not only a part of the War on Terror, but possibly the most important campaign that will be fought in the War on Terror, since if the theory is correct and the campaign in Iraq is successful it may result in a significant long term decrease or almost elimination of Islamic terrorism.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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