Continuity Problem

POSTED BY: Hessian
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 02:02
VIEWED: 5119
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HESSIAN

Monday, February 13, 2006 2:29 AM

I don't know if anyone has discussed this yet, but in the orignal pilot Serenity, Simon implies that he hired people to rescue River from the alliance. However, In the movie Serenity he is actually the main rescuer. What's up with that?

EMBERS

Monday, February 13, 2006 3:19 AM

in the movie 'Serenity' you noticed the people who pulled up with the spaceship and lowered the platform? THEY were they people he hired.
They were the ones (probably) who told Simon the 'safe' word to put River to sleep if she went lethal, AND they were probably the ones who had the cryo box to put River in for further transport...

so personally I don't see any continuity problem,
in the first (pilot) episode of 'Firefly' Simon had to tell the story as convincingly and quickly as possible so he left out all the self-engrandizing details ... makes sense to me anyway.

Of course the difference is that I expect it all to fit, so I look for the things that make it work....

**********************************************
watch the R. Tam Session vids: http://www.hittarivertam.nu/
and buy the 'Serenity' comics published by Dark Horse
have you checked out this thread?:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=15816

THEONETRUEBIX

Monday, February 13, 2006 3:21 AM

Joss has stated outright that he simply contradicted the series in order to write a dramatic opening.

However, he later said that he's adopted the popuular fanwank that in the series, Simon simply lied to the crew about how much he was involved in the rescue personally.

The basics of that fanwank are summarized here:

http://www.riverismadeofchocolate.com/spoilers/2005/Jul/21/no_contradi
ctions

ROCKETJOCK

Monday, February 13, 2006 3:28 AM

This subject's been discussed at length in more than one other thread, but I'm sure people will log in again to give you their two cents worth. Here's mine:

I see no real contradiction; Simon didn't give Mal & Company the whole story because he had no logical reason to; after all, he barely knew them at the time. And besides, Jayne would have taken the truth as bragging. He wasn't exactly overflowing with patience as it was...

For those who feel that the "James Bond" style of the escape was out of character for Simon, I tend to point to "Ariel", where Simon shows that he is both an excellent planner & a capable actor, at least within the society he was raised in. It's only out on the rim that he has a hard time. I call it the "Green Acres" effect.

I think, given time to adjust to the outsystem, and with watching out for River less of a full-time job, he will eventually develop a new persona -- something perhaps along the lines of the old TV version of Bat Masterson, a frontier gentleman, urbane and civilized, but able to cope with life on the raggedy edge. With style!

"Nothing gives life more zest, than running for your life." --Robert A. Heinlein

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, February 13, 2006 4:50 AM

Contradiction, yes there is.

Simon said that he paid people to get her out and get her to Persephone. That's where he picked her up and got on Serenity.

Thus contradiction.

The only way one doesn't see it is if one puts blinders on so that they don't see it. It is not a question of if a contradiction exists or not, it's a question of whether you allow yourself to see it, or stick with denial.

Also, see comment above about Joss saying that he was contradicting canon to make a better story.

If you doubt Serenity not being Firefly, watch the entire series, then the movie. Although things are similar, they are most definitely different. I just did it, so I know. Pissed me off it did. To stray so far from canon.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

THEONETRUEBIX

Monday, February 13, 2006 5:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Pissed me off it did. To stray so far from canon.

The Simon bit is really the only place he strayed from canon, and that bit is addressed after the fact by the fanwank, which even Joss has adopted.

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, February 13, 2006 6:07 AM

@theonetruebix:

Actually, Mal was off. People say that he was "darker". No he wasn't, he has was angier; an asshole.

Book had strayed as well. He was more harsh towards Mal, and let him know that he wasn't going to tell him about his past. But, in the show Book mentioned that he wanted to some day.

Kaylee was off too, though she was the least so. Her character had just become somewhat more vulgar (though only slightly so). Her dialog was also off for that character.

Jayne was purely a dumbass. Whereas on the show, he as made to be someone that could have been smart, but was just brought up to not be, nor what to be smart.

Wash was turned into a red-shirt, having no real part at all.

Zoe again different. Turned on the Captain way too harshly, showed that way too much emotion, etc.

Simon was way too aggessive for his character.

There was no indication that River was ever going to become some super weapon. Quite frankly, I find it more than lame that Joss did this; pathetic actually.

All in all, these are not the characters of the series. Also, this is not the universe that the series was set it. Even Serenity herself, was different, espeically archetecually.

This is not my Firefly.

If you doubt, then do what I've outlined above; watch the series, back to back in a short period, then watch the movie. They are different.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

THEONETRUEBIX

Monday, February 13, 2006 6:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Actually, Mal was off. People say that he was "darker". No he wasn't, he has was angier; an asshole.

I didn't see anger. I saw distance and detachment -- fully explainable by the fact that two members of his makeshift family were off the ship, so why bother feeling connected to people any more?

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Book had strayed as well. He was more harsh towards Mal, and let him know that he wasn't going to tell him about his past. But, in the show Book mentioned that he wanted to some day.

I saw no harshness whatsoever from Book. On that one particular point, what he says to Mal (in response to "You'll have to tell me about that someday"), simply, is, "No I don't." That doesn't mean he wouldn't, someday. Doesn't even mean he didn't want to. Just meant what it said: He doesn't HAVE to tell Mal anything.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Kaylee was off too, though she was the least so. Her character had just become somewhat more vulgar (though only slightly so). Her dialog was also off for that character.

Off?

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Jayne was purely a dumbass. Whereas on the show, he as made to be someone that could have been smart, but was just brought up to not be, nor what to be smart.

He wasn't just a dumbass. In fact, he showed some degree of growth. Given what River accomplished in Objects In Space, for example, you don't see Jayne whinging about River being brought along for the trading station heist. He even complimented Simon on having done what he'd done for his sister (not the act of someone who is just a dumbass). Nor is his reaction to Miranda (e.g. his willingly signing onto Mal's crazy mission to get the signal out) the sign of purely a dumbass.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Wash was turned into a red-shirt, having no real part at all.

Except for being a bad-ass pilot who saves the entire crew, sure.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Zoe again different. Turned on the Captain way too harshly, showed that way too much emotion, etc.

She never "turns on" the Captain. She challenges him to justify what he did on Lilac. Perfectly in character with what Mal tells Wash in War Stories: That she absolutely questions his orders and his actions, just not usually in front of other people.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Simon was way too aggessive for his character.

Well, for one thing, Mal had just almost gotten his sister eaten by Reavers. And since you're the one who keeps sayig "go watch the series" as if no one but you has ever done so, go back and notice that almost everytime we see Simon get "aggressive" or go into man-of-action mode, it's because he's protecting River. It's entirely consistent.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
There was no indication that River was ever going to become some super weapon. Quite frankly, I find it more than lame that Joss did this; pathetic actually.

There was no indication of a lot of things in the series, given that it was cut short. But that said, the idea that there was "no indication" is laughable. Again returning to War Stories, did you forget she shot three people she barely even looked at, handling the gun without a second thought about it?

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, February 13, 2006 7:39 AM

@theonetruebix:
I have no time to debate things that are obvious if you'd just watch the show then the movie straight afterward. Do that, then come back and we'll talk.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

GWEK

Monday, February 13, 2006 8:24 AM

I have watched the series and the movie directly afterward, and while I'll agree that there are some continuity errors (most notably the rescue of River), most of the characterization we see is spot on.

Consider that "Serenity" is essentially 2 or 3 "episodes" in length. During that time, Whedon wouldn't necessarily showcase every one of the 9 member ensemble cast, and that's what we see here with characters like Zoe, Wash, Jayne, and Kaylee. They are perfectly in character, just not getting as much "screen time" as they did in the series AS A WHOLE.

Other characters (Book, Simon, River, Inara and Mal) have undergone evolution to get them to the point where they are. Yes, we may not have seen that evolution, but it's quite clear that much of Mal's darker side that we see is because he's lost the moral compass of Book and Inara.

It's also important to keep in mind that a movie is a different animal from a TV show, and, by it's nature, is generally going to be more intense. A lot of the characterization "issues" you see stem from that fact.

As for your so-called continuity errors, some are intentional (and admitted by Mister Whedon) as necessary for the change from TV show to movie, or because Fox owned the rights to certain ideas or characters.

I completely agree with you re: River's rescue, but you say that there's nothing in the series to set-up River as a living weapon. Clearly, you must not have watched the ENTIRE series, because I'm assuming you've skipped at least "War Stories" and "Objects in Space" to reach that conclusion.

Oh, and one last thing, if you're going to pose a question to folks, you might not want to be so rude when they answer.

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