Funny Cartoon sparks Islamic Jihad !

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UPDATED: Wednesday, August 26, 2026 18:50
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PIRATENEWS

Saturday, February 11, 2006 3:05 AM

"I got heathens aplenty right here."
-Book

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
It's called propoganda, we can't be blaming muslims for all the evils of the world if they're just normal people too...

"That's sounds like the Alliance. Unite all the planets under one rule, so that everybody can be interfered with or ignored equally."
-Mal

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO (VERSION 2)
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

CITIZEN

Saturday, February 11, 2006 3:24 AM

And where does YOUR indignation come from?

As far as I can see both their issues are with interpretations of Islam (theirs in fact).

Islam Christianity and Judaism are branches from a common trunk; they share prophets and holy lands and aspects and stories from the scriptures are remarkably alike.

I don’t need you or ex-Muslims who have seen the light to show me the errors of my ways; I’ve studied the Bible and much of the Qur’an. My assertion that Christianity and Islam are similar is because they are similar.

Beyond that there’s nothing (that’s not a damn thing) in either of those links that supports what you said one iota.

I know Islam is an evil religion so can't possibly have anything to do with the enlightened all good religion of Christianity though. I hear they eat babies, it’s one of the main tenets set down in the Qur’an, what is it Surah 3:40, something about old men eating sons? .

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

CARTOON

Saturday, February 11, 2006 4:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Beyond that there’s nothing (that’s not a damn thing) in either of those links that supports what you said one iota.

You obviously didn't read either of them. Shoebat (and Abdullah) have spoken at length about how Islam contradicts the Bible, and how they are as different as night and day.

The biggest contradiction of course is obvious to even a child. Islam is based on works, Christianity on grace, apart from works. Christianity teaches that man cannot save himself or please God through merit, and that salvation comes through the substitutionary sacrifice of the Lamb of God. Shoebat and Abdullah both recognized this and left the religion that taught them (by their own admission) to hate Jews and Christians.

I applaud Shoebat and Abdullah. Both freely admit they had been deceived and were wrong.

It's a shame that not everyone is as open-minded as they were.

FLETCH2

Saturday, February 11, 2006 5:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

The biggest contradiction of course is obvious to even a child. Islam is based on works, Christianity on grace, apart from works. Christianity teaches that man cannot save himself or please God through merit, and that salvation comes through the substitutionary sacrifice of the Lamb of God. Shoebat and Abdullah both recognized this and left the religion that taught them (by their own admission) to hate Jews and Christians.

I applaud Shoebat and Abdullah. Both freely admit they had been deceived and were wrong.

It's a shame that not everyone is as open-minded as they were.

Noooo

That's a Protestant idea, a heresy that would have had those nice men from the Inquisition visiting you 400 years ago.

Justification through faith alone is not accepted by Catholics or by Orthodox Christians. The Man said "by their fruits you will know them" not "You can be shitty your fellow man your entire life and get into heaven on a technicality."

Luther decided that Grace was such a profound gift that shitty human types could never be good enough to deserve it no matter what they did. Pity that because everything the Lord said (remember him? Jewish guy? beard?) was about how your conduct towards your fellow man WOULD be judged.

So no, works are still important for a whole bunch of Christians.

CARTOON

Saturday, February 11, 2006 6:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
So no, works are still important for a whole bunch of Christians.

Works are evidence of faith, not means of salvation. Otherwise, you would have to conveniently ignore Paul's multitudinous statements about salvation by grace through faith, not of works.

And, yes, the world will be judged by its works -- and all be found wanting. The Lord demands perfection -- which none of us can achieve. Hence, the grace, and Jesus's saying to Nicodemus that a man must be "born again" (Jesus's words -- actually "born anew"). If man could earn his way, why would have to be born "a new" ("from above")? The whole concept of the Messiah dying a substitutionary death is by grace, to save a fallen mankind who is incapable of saving itself. If man could earn salvation by works, the work of the cross was unnecessary. And God would not have sacrificed His Son if we could earn our own salvation.

FLETCH2

Saturday, February 11, 2006 6:57 AM

I'm not going to argue the Reformation with you, just pointing out that your statement on Justification is not considered complete by two of the three major branches of the religion.

All Christians agree that justification is by faith -- we all believe that Jesus died for our sins-- but to Protestants that is a passive process, you receive the gift and any good works that follow is a reflection of it. Both RC and Orthodox dont believe that the works part is more important, just that they *are* important ie slavation isn't a passive process. They view Pauls writings as being towards those early churches that insisted that people still follow the Jewish law to be Christians (ie saw Christianity as a Jewish sect rather than a new covenant.) The Rc and Orthodox churches realy more on James than Paul.

(as an interesting sidenote to this I tried to find the specific quote online. It's from James Chapter 2 and reads --

Quote:

14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16: And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

When I put in the citation looking for an online bible to copy/paste a quote I instead found probably 300 American Protestant websites "explaining" why this isn't actually what it appears to say. Pop in references to Paul's letters (some of the err... justifications for JBFA) and you find Catholic websites "explaining" how that isn't what it appears.)

Anyway, it's not especially relevent to the question in discussion. Muslims are by definition not Christians, questions of Justification hardly seem appropriate.

A question worth asking though and as you seem well read on the topic I will pose it to you. If an Orthodox Jew follows the Jewish law errr... religiously, will he still be saved since he is fulfilling the Lord's first covenant with Abraham? Logic suggests that Christ redrew that law and instituted a new covenant with men. In which case are these God fearing Orthodox Jews doomed?

Your opinion?

CITIZEN

Saturday, February 11, 2006 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originnally posted by Cartoon:
You obviously didn't read either of them. Shoebat (and Abdullah) have spoken at length about how Islam contradicts the Bible, and how they are as different as night and day.

I obviously did, but since I'm not a Christian fundamentalist I don't see everything ever written as either heresy or confirmation that mine is the one true god. I've read both the Bible and the Qur'an, I'd be somewhat surprised if you'd even thought about being in the same room as an alternate text.

So how about you give me the quotes I obviously missed from those links that support what you say, rather than just trawling up random links that apparently prove your rhetoric, and saying see, I have a link. It really doesn't impress me.

Furthermore I'm talking about the actual religion of Islam, not the behaviour of some of it's followers or propaganda that I saw on Fox news or the Christian Fundamentalist channel, which is obviously what you're repeating like a good little non-thinking parrot.

I never disputed there were differences, even outright contradictions between Christianity and Islam. For instance there's the fact that Christianity condemns all other religions in it's sacred text, where as the Qur'an clearly calls for secularism, by stating clearly that Muslims have no right to interfere with followers of other religions

. I could quote reams of passages between the Qur'an and the Bible that are near identical though. Is it worth it, are you prepared to listen, or do you just want to support your preconceived notion that Christianity is wholly good and Islam is an evil religion deserving of persecution?

Quote:
Shoebat and Abdullah both recognized this and left the religion that taught them (by their own admission) to hate Jews and Christians.

There's nothing inherent to Islam that calls for the hate or persecution of Jews. There's no comparable statement within the Qur’an to the Bibles:
Which say they are Jews [[]Those that follow the teachings of Christ, i.e. Christians[]], and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan [[]Revelations 2:9[]]

Christians have been persecuting Jews for centuries, and some still do, so you earn nothing by trying to make anti-Semitism a Muslim thing.

Quote:
It's a shame that not everyone is as open-minded as they were.

Let me get this straight, denouncing an entire religion based on one's own prejudices is open-minded? If that wasn’t so scary a position it would be funny.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

CARTOON

Saturday, February 11, 2006 6:39 PM

If you are interested in hearing why these former Muslims have rejected Islam and turned to the Lord, I recommend you check the audio or video links to their televised appearances available through the link below.

(Unfortunately, I've tried the video links at the Shoebat site, and they would not load for me. I don't know if it's because I have dial-up, or because the links are dead.)

However, Ibrahim Abdullah will be on the "Zola Levitt" program again this week -- I believe it airs on ABCFAM at 1AM Eastern Time, Monday (late Sunday night).

I cannot speak with firsthand knowledge about practicing Islam. I can speak with firsthand knowledge about practicing Christianity.

They can speak with firsthand knowledge both about Islam, having both been ardent, practicing Muslims (and both self-admitted terrorists), and also with firsthand knowledge about being practicing Christians -- and why they did a complete turnaround and rejected their former beliefs. I cannot.

One can "study" the military, but they will never have the knowledge of someone who has actually been a soldier. These gentlemen (and others like them) have been actual soldiers -- ardently practicing their beliefs on both sides.

As such, they are far more qualified than someone who has only been on one side (like myself), or others who have never been on either side, but have only read about it.

I've heard their testimonies, and I would be doing them a disservice without a transcript (which is not available to me at that present). Similarly, the brief excerpts from their bios at that site hardly do justice to their stories -- which are quite remarkable -- hearing from their own mouths why they left Islam, and why they now openly reject it, and what such a stance has cost them in their lives.

If this is something you are genuinely interested in, I highly recommend you attempting to view Mr. Abdullah tomorrow night on TV, and/or check Mr. Levitt's site for video clips...

Mr. Shoebat's TV appearances on Levitt can be found here ( http://www.levitt.tv/ ) under the category: "Program Archives: Muslims".

Unfortunately, Mr. Abdullah's TV appearances on Levitt are not available through the webpage. I assume they will be shortly (within a few weeks).

Regarding "Christians" who have persecuted Jews -- as I've stated here elsewhere (probably more than once), anyone who has persecuted Jews (or anyone for that matter) is not a Christian. Words are cheap, walking the walk is the true measure of what a person believes.

CITIZEN

Saturday, February 11, 2006 7:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cartoon:
However, Ibrahim Abdullah will be on the "Zola Levitt" program again this week -- I believe it airs on ABCFAM at 1AM Eastern Time, Monday (late Sunday night).

I live in Britain so I won't be able to watch this, I will try the television/radio links on the website.

Quote:
One can "study" the military, but they will never have the knowledge of someone who has actually been a soldier. These gentlemen (and others like them) have been actual soldiers -- ardently practicing their beliefs on both sides.

Well they obviously weren't very good 'soldiers' as you put it. Despite Mr. Abdullah's assertion that he studied the Qur'an he obviously missed a huge number of passages that talk about Jews and Christians, and missed the concept of the Dhimmi and how its as bad to commit any crime against one under Islamic law as it is to commit a crime against a Muslim. The fact is he wasn't really a Muslim, since he only followed Islam as far as it supported his pre-conceived prejudices and no further. This is no different from your defence of Christians later on in your post. Either both Christianity and Islam call for persecution of Jews, or neither does.

There are extremist Christians who plant bombs in abortion centres, so do we assume that Christianity supports the bombing of abortion centres, or that some people who say they are Christian missed the point entirely and are just sick arseholes?

Quote:
Regarding "Christians" who have persecuted Jews -- as I've stated here elsewhere (probably more than once), anyone who has persecuted Jews (or anyone for that matter) is not a Christian.

I have no problem with this statement save this:
If one wishes to use this as a defence for Christians you have to extend that to Muslims. There is nothing in Islam that calls for persecution of anyone on religious grounds, and much that forbids it. It is stated in the Qur’an that Jews and Christians are ‘people of the book’ and are expressly protected under Islamic law as Dhimmi. The laws which pertain to the practice of Islam (Shar'iah Law), DO NOT apply to non-Muslims, this, as well as explicit passages within the Qur'an, teach (or at least should do) not only religious tolerance, but also a degree of Secularism (that is allowing anyone to practice their own faith, not separation of state and church) within the Islamic state.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

CARTOON

Saturday, February 11, 2006 7:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I have no problem with this statement save this:
If one wishes to use this as a defence for Christians you have to extend that to Muslims. There is nothing in Islam that calls for persecution of anyone on religious grounds, and much that forbids it. It is stated in the Qur’an that Jews and Christians are ‘people of the book’ and are expressly protected under Islamic law as Dhimmi. The laws which pertain to the practice of Islam (Shar'iah Law), DO NOT apply to non-Muslims, this, as well as explicit passages within the Qur'an, teach (or at least should do) not only religious tolerance, but also a degree of Secularism (that is allowing anyone to practice their own faith, not separation of state and church) within the Islamic state.

Well, I can't speak for the Qur'an, as I've never read it, and was never a practicing a Muslim, but I can refer you to the statement of a man who was a practicing Muslim, Zachariah Anani (from http://www.shoebat.com/anani.php)...

"A lot of people think that Islam is okay," says Anani, and "that those who are making these terrorist attacks are not from Islam. It's actually the other way around. The people who are nice are not really true Muslims—all you have to do is read the doctrine. Chapter (9) of the Qur'an is nothing but a declaration of war."

As regards to your living in Britain, I imagine the show will shortly be available via that webpage. I checked the links to the Shoebat shows on Levitt, and both worked fine. I hope you will check them out if you are interested.

BTW, I visited Britain once in autum of 1983. Only for 8 days, but I loved it. Part of my ancestry is British, and I have a great affinity for the British people.

I do feel personally slighted, however, as Her Majesty saw fit to leave for the United States on the day I arrived (I believe to buy some horses in Kentucky), then returned on the day I left. I can't help but feel that was intentional, and that she was trying to avoid me.

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