THE BIG MESSY THREAD--Discussion of the Civil War and its relations to FIREFLY

POSTED BY: SouthernMerc
UPDATED: Sunday, October 26, 2003 20:41
VIEWED: 10919
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SOUTHERNMERC

Friday, August 29, 2003 7:00 AM

Quick note: Jubal Early was a Confederate general. Wonder how this relates to the character on FF?

Jayne: "How big a room?"

JOHNNYREB

Friday, August 29, 2003 12:29 PM

A few quick thoughts:

The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't legal. It wasn't a law, it was Lincoln proclaiming this is so. Not that the people in the North cared, it only affected the states in open rebellion. Maryland, Kentucky, Lousiana (by that point), and West Virginia all got to keep their slaves. All the other southern states lost them. How Lincoln proposed to take them away when the North couldn't win and battles in the eastern theater is anyone's guess.

The cotton gin made the South's economy viable. I think Fremdfirma misused the word. (It happens to the best of us! ) I'm sure Frem didn't mean to say that the cotton gin undermined the sothern economy.

Jubal Early was a distant relation of Nathan Fillion's. That is how they came to use the name, not because of any qualities Early posessed. (Actually, wasn't it Early who blew it for Lee at Gettysburg?)

Viva Firefly!

OUTLAWTEXAN

Friday, August 29, 2003 1:17 PM

Just a few thoughts on various things pointed out in the thread -- please forgive my laziness in not pointing out exactly who said which one...

Historically, "indentured servant" and "slave" have often largely become the same thing. Yes, there is meant to be a difference, but that difference often gets lost in implementation. That being the case, I'm still unsure which version is used in the FF 'verse.

Now, having made at least a small point relevant to the show, I can rant a bit... ;')

The modern teaching of the Civil War being about slavery is largely a case of political correctness, in my opinion. I think a good case can be made that slavery was dying out, even in the Cotton States -- at least two plans for gradual emancipation were put before Congress by Southern legislators, which were largely disregarded on political grounds (the view of some controlling Northern legislators that if it's Southern, it must be bad).

Additionally, some Southerners were beginning to realize that slavery was simply not as cost-effective as hiring free labor -- free labor only has to be paid during the harvest season, while slaves have to be cared for throughout the year. And these slaves were, in the vast majority, well cared for. They were expensive property, after all. (No, I am not condoning the practice, just pointing out the prevailing view at the time.)

Again, this is opinion, but I tend to think that had the Confederacy survived, emancipation would have still taken place, just a bit later. Robert E. Lee, had he lived long enough, would have very likely become the President after Jefferson Davis, and Lee was against the practice of slavery.

To bring this back around to FF again, not knowing more about the prevailing economic systems in place, it's really hard to say much about their version of slavery -- if that is, indeed, what is happening. On cattle ranches, for instance, slavery was not used in this country for much beyond personal servants (I think this may have been somewhat different in Brazil, which did not emancipate its' slaves until well after we did). That form of labor was simply less useful, so it was unlikely that Mal had much contact with the practice before the war.

Mal does not seem especially fond of the idea, considering his reaction in the pilot when River was discovered, although this could have been just as easily caused by thinking Simon was a pedophile.

TZEGHA

Friday, August 29, 2003 7:25 PM

No, I think you're thinking of J.E.B. Stuart, Lieutenant General. He was the nancy who was galvanting around the eastern seaboard like the dandy he was instead of doing his job as the forward eyes and ears of Lee. So it was that the Confederacy walked blindly into a bad situation without backup or forewarning.

And I think that Mal's issue with slavery is a very fundamental issue of FREEDOM. And I think it's a very big part of his personality and a big theme of the show. From Mal's choice of life: "What's that, sir?" "Freedom, is what." -- that's what Serenity means to him.

I think one of the reasons why he can't stand Inara's job so much is because she is a willing slave. She blindly has let her freedom be taken from her, no matter her illusion of power and standing. But that's another topic.

I think that slavery, of any kind: physical, emotional, psychological, political, etc is a very big part of the show. Indentured servants, owned people, and slaves seem to be a very large part of the underbelly of the FF 'verse, and very relevant. But as I said, I think the issues of slavery and freedom go beyond being a bought and paid for person.

TZEGHA

Friday, August 29, 2003 7:30 PM

Jubal Early, Major General.

"A dark, cold, icy man, bitter, alone [snip] a competent soldier, but a man who works with an eye to the future, a slippery man, a careful soldier; he will build his reputation whatever the cost. Dick Ewell defers to him. Longstreet despises him. Lee makes do with the material at hand. Lee calls him "my bad old man."

I think the name was very fitting.

JOHNNYREB

Friday, August 29, 2003 7:52 PM

Is that a quote from Killer Angels?

I agree that Stuart was negligent, but Early was equally culpable. General Kimball let Early know that Little Round Top was lightly defended and could be taken easily. It was Early, I believe, that neglected to take his chance at securing the high ground after Lee suggested he take it if practicable. Ole Stonewall would have made damn sure it was "practicable." If it is Early I'm thinking of.

Viva Firefly!

TZEGHA

Friday, August 29, 2003 8:01 PM

Yup. Sorry, forgot to reference it. I'm sort of in a mad dash to pack for the weekend and hit the road and get jammed in NYC traffic!

JOHNNYREB

Friday, August 29, 2003 8:59 PM

Perfectly understandable! Have a good weekend.

Viva Firefly!

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, August 29, 2003 9:39 PM

Amazing how revisionist school-taught "history" can be.

I collect old social studies and history textbooks at used bookstores and yard sales, and it's quite funny to compare them to each other.

I pulled that bit about the cotton gin from one of the more respected ones (an old Silver Burdett, I think) that usually has the facts in order - surprising what you learn from other people, eh ?

The hard part of history is sorting the truth out of endless political rewrites.

The weapons now, those I know a bit better - didja know the first automatic cannon was actually used in the civil war ?

And the Whitworth rifle(not cannon) was a right terror, since a good southen sniper could put a hole in you from half a mile away with one - they used them to harrass enemy artillery and supply personnel.

Wasn't there a northern officer who got capped with one of those ?

Very interesting topic, this.

-frem
diefuxdie

BLACKSTAR

Friday, August 29, 2003 10:03 PM

I'm sure many Northern officers were killed by snipers using this weapon, but I think the incident you are referring to was the death of Gen. John Sedgewick, who said "Why, they couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..." as he was hit by Southern sniper fire, providing us with one of the greatest "Famous Last Words."

Oh, my God! Who's flying this thig! Oh, right, that would be me...

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