Libertarians, moderates, liberals and ...
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Thursday, February 9, 2006 15:20
VIEWED: 6399
PAGE 7 of 8
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It shouldn't matter whether you're a so-called Republican, Dem, Independent, or Libertarian... this nominatio should be something that EVERYONE is against.
is it bad that I don't even know what republican, democrat, independent, or libertarian even mean? the idea of republican vs. democrat has always bothered me.
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http://www.xffx.net/blog <-inching towards daylight
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Geezer- I'm going to dip into this discussion with you just long enough to point out the problem I have w/ your answer. It is what I would have answered before except I didn't have enough time.
What you COULD have said was: "The girl's rights were violated but not by the police". Or you could have said "Suspect until checked out under a warrant" or "The case should have been referred back to a lower court for correction" or you could have even quoted Alito, who said
Quote:lefarkins.blogspot.com/2005/11/more-on-strip-search-sammy.html (which in itself is an exceptionally troubling argument but at least gives to nod to court involvement). Instead, what you said was
"The magistrate must have understood that the officers, who had drafted the warrant, believed that the warrant, if signed, would give them authorization to carry out a search of the scope specified in the application, viz., a search of 'all occupants.' As a result, the magistrate surely would not have signed the warrant without modification if the magistrate had not wished to confer that authority."
"Suspect until checked out".
That- in any reading- is global advocacy for an unrestrained police state and from my reading of most of your other posts I think it reflects a real heartfelt pro-military, pro-police, pro-"internal security" reaction. You will occasionally move off that point long enough to caveat your statements with "Well I don't like what Bush is doing to gays" but the vast bulk of your posts defend this Adminstration. So I'm curious- were you that defensive of Clinton? Are you for a strong central government under ANY circumstances? Or are you pro-Bush, or pro-Republican?
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Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:No it's not bad, it just means you're a thinking person! I know there are people who are registered as Democratic Party who violently disagree with other Dems. I don't think you can classify people's political leanings on just a Dem-GOP axis. Even that two-axis classification that has been posed here a couple of times doesn't fit a lot of people. I was just aiming this post at everyone who isn't a dyed-in-the-wool fascist.
is it bad that I don't even know what republican, democrat, independent, or libertarian even mean? the idea of republican vs. democrat has always bothered me.
---------------------------------
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
"Suspect until checked out".
That- in any reading- is global advocacy for an unrestrained police state and from my reading of most of your other posts I think it reflects a real heartfelt pro-military, pro-police, pro-"internal security" reaction.
Actually, it means that a mother and daughter who live with a suspected drug dealer can reasonably be expected to either have knowledge of, or be aiding in, his dealing. If the police and judge had had better communication and had not made procedural errors in the warrant, there would have been no case at all, since the request for a search of "all persons" seems justified.
If the police had searched the mother and daughter knowing that they did not have a valid warrant, I'd have a major problem with that. No one alleges that this is what happened. I also expect that if two males had been searched based on the defective warrant instead of a mother and daughter ("Oh my God! They strip-searched a child!"), none of this would have come up at all. Gender bias works both ways.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I also expect that if two males had been searched based on the defective warrant instead of a mother and daughter ("Oh my God! They strip-searched a child!"), none of this would have come up at all. Gender bias works both ways.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
On the other hand had the police come to the Magistrate and asked straight out to strip search a child there is a good chance their request would have been refused. So the ambiguity of the warrant that made it unconstitutional was also responsable for it being issued in the first place.
The question before the court is simple, is this warrant constitutionally acceptable? If it is then it would apply had it been a woman and her daughter or two men off the street, the purpose of the law is to be equitable, that's why justice is supposed to be blind.
Had there been two dodgy characters in the place rather than the mother and daughter searching them would still have been a breach of their constitutional rights, the fact that it was a Mother and child just makes that breach seem more horrible and probably effect the damages awarded.
If you are a conservative don't you believe in personal responsability? You seem to be saying "not the police's fault, they didn't know the warrant was illegal," well it sure is someones fault and ulimately someone has to pay. Now if that comes from the city cops of the state legal apparatus is just a matter of which bank account the check draws on. The government was at fault, time to pay.
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obviously we are following this thread and we are shooting off our mouth but that's beside the point. Do'nt you think evil might be A bit much dear.
Was he so evil he volunteered for vietnam while GWB ran off to the NG air in Texas.(an open secret on getting out of being shot at) Was he eveil when awarded 3 medals for meritorious service. Again beside the real point.
Have you considered why they call it the "nuclear option" it leaves no servivors. Understand the precidant it will set for the future.I know all the up and coming republicans out there think they will alway's be in power. Take it from someone who has seen it both ways. Watching politic's since the 1960's. It's A cyclical thing and whend the Democrate's come back around for their turn the republican's will wish that filibuster were still intact. There is an old adage. When the God's wish to punish us they give us what we most desire.
jhance11
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Geezer,
You really need to read Fletch2's response. But here are other facts:
Quote:For a warrant to be signed you need probable cause. The affidavit had no 'probable cause' for searching the mother or child.
And the police can "check out" whichever "suspect" they please, as long as they can convince a judge to sign a warrant.
Specifically
Quote:If you read the affidavit (which you apparently have not) it specifically states that NON-RESIDENT ADULTS of the house may be assumed to be engaged in drug deals and may be searched. Even IF you assume the judge fudged-up and meant to sign a broader warrant than he actually did sign, there is no room in the affidavit to search the mother, and especially not the child.
... since the request for a search of "all persons" seems justified
The issue is, why did Alito stretch allowable circumstances for the police?
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Oh, I'm sure Geezer will think of SOME reason why a resident child, as opposed to a non-resident adult, was searched. Likely he will say that it's just "semantics" ort some such. We can always count on Geezer to stretch and stretch and stretch executive power! 
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The issue is, why did Alito stretch allowable circumstances for the police?
Let's let Judge Alito answer.
"I would reverse the order of the District Court and direct that summary judgment be entered in favor of the defendants. First, the best reading of the warrant is that it authorized the search of any persons found on the premises. Second, even if the warrant did not contain such authorization, a reasonable police officer could certainly have read the warrant as doing so, and therefore the appellants are entitled to qualified immunity...I share the majority's visceral dislike of the intrusive search of John Doe's young daughter, but it is a sad fact that drug dealers sometimes use children to carry out their business and to avoid prosecution. I know of no legal principle that bars an officer from searching a child (in a proper manner) if a warrant has been issued and the warrant is not illegal on its face. Because the warrant in this case authorized the searches that are challenged - and because a reasonable officer, in any event, certainly could have thought that the warrant conferred such authority - I would reverse."
You can find his entire dissent here:
http://www.asksam.com/cgi-bin/as_web6.exe?Command=DocName&File=Alito_O
pinions&Name=Doe%20v.%20Groody
about 2/3 down the document.
As to:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If you read the affidavit (which you apparently have not) it specifically states that NON-RESIDENT ADULTS of the house may be assumed to be engaged in drug deals and may be searched. Even IF you assume the judge fudged-up and meant to sign a broader warrant than he actually did sign, there is no room in the affidavit to search the mother, and especially not the child.
I read the ruling, which states about 1/4 from the top:
"The typed affidavit requested permission to search John Doe's residence and his Volkswagen for drugs, paraphernalia, money, drug records and other evidence. Additionally, the affidavit stated:
*236 The search should also include all occupants of the residence as the information developed shows that Doe has frequent visitors that purchase methamphetamine. These persons may be on the premises at the time of the execution of the search warrant and many attempt to conceal controlled substances on their persons.
This application seeks permission to search all occupants of the residence and their belongings to prevent the removal, concealment, or destruction of any evidence requested in this warrant. It is the experience of **4 your co-affiants that drug dealers often attempt to do so when faced with impending apprehension and may give such evidence to persons who do not acutally reside or own/rent the premises. This is done to prevent the discovery of said items in hopes that said persons will not be subject to search when police arrive."
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Doe has frequent visitors that purchase methamphetamine. These persons may be on the premises at the time of the execution of the search warrant and many attempt to conceal controlled substances on their persons.
This application seeks permission to search all occupants of the residence and their belongings to prevent the removal, concealment, or destruction of any evidence requested in this warrant. It is the experience of your co-affiants that drug dealers often attempt to do so when faced with impending apprehension and may give such evidence to persons who do not acutally reside or own/rent the premises...
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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