Guns in the 'Verse

POSTED BY: outlawtexan
UPDATED: Thursday, August 28, 2003 16:59
VIEWED: 8964
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WHOODAHN

Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JOHNNYREB:
THAT'S THE ONE! Where the hell did you find that?! It looks like I was a little off about what the poem was about, but it's all there. Boy, that brings back a memory or two. Good ole ribald nineteenth century poetry!

I love the Internet. I did a search for a couple of key words and stumbled across a reference to the poem.

You learn something new each day if you aren't careful.

SOUTHERNMERC

Thursday, August 21, 2003 6:57 AM

Another reason for using the simpler firearms shown in FF: Less maintenance.

While it is a good idea to clean your firearms often, it is not as critical with the simpler revolvers, pump shotguns, and lever action rifles. Automatics, however, are more sensitive. Grit and abrasive residue in the action must be removed, otherwise the firearm will jam. Jamming during a firefight is BAD news, rendering those extra bullets in the clip quite useless til the jam is cleared. While dirt and grime are bad for any weapon, the simpler the weapon (ie pump action, revolver), the less likely it is the weapon will fail on you due to the environment.

How big a room?

OUTLAWTEXAN

Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:11 PM

I agree, revolvers are more "robust" than autos, in that they require less maintenance. This is with modern powder, though. As was mentioned earlier, one can cook up their own black powder, but this stuff is incredibly caustic, and if you don't clean your gun EVERY TIME YOU FIRE IT, you will soon be unarmed.

Now, while it's important to clean a gun every time you shoot it, if you don't do it with black powder, it will literally eat your gun up.

Also, they can't be using black powder. There just isn't enough smoke. During the Civil War -- or, more accurately, the War of Northern Aggression to a good ol' Southern Boy like myself ;-) -- a few dozen shots provides a very thick smokescreen. Even a single shot means you have to wait a moment or two to find out if you even hit the target.

Also, reloading a brass cartridge with black powder doesn't give the same power to the bullet. Powder, like Pyrodex or the sort, is pretty cheap now, so there's no reason not to think it's fairly cheap and available in the 'Verse.

JOHNNYREB

Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:29 PM

I always thought that the 1911 A-1 was built for stopping power and use while it was uncleaned and filthy. It was a trench weapon. (You know, the old WWI /WWII .45 pistol?) Isn't it true that this automatic pistol didn't fire worth a tinker's damn when it was clean and gained more accuracy as the residue and grime built up? I could be wrong; I've never fired one. But that is just what I heard.

I'm not saying that it is more or less sensitive than a revolver. But I was always led to believe that it performed it's best in the trenches for just that reason.

Viva Firefly!

SOUTHERNMERC

Friday, August 22, 2003 1:13 PM

And one further thing of note.

I noticed the revolvers in FF have very small caliber bullets, notice the pistol when Mal is pointing it at folks. Now, while a smaller caliber is just as good at killing like any other supersonic piece of metal flying through the air, larger calibers have more knockdown power and armor penetration ability. But when used, Mal's gun typically picks the target up and puts it on the ground. For me this says "hyper-velocity ammunition." Hyper-velocity (HV) rounds don't just travel supersonic (faster than 1x speed of sound), but hypersonic (3x+ speed of sound). This puts ALOT more kinetic energy into the round, and if designed to mushroom (tip expands or "mushrooms" into a larger cross section) or fragment (bunch of pieces) will deliver large amounts of kinetic energy into the target.

Quickie recap for those non-science ppl out there: kinetic energy= mass of object X square of objects speed (M*V^2). Of course, you can get more complex equations detailing just about everything about the energy of the object, but this simplified equation tells the tale.

HV ammo is a lot more expensive than standard, but would be of a smaller caliber and thus would allow more bullets to be in the revolver. A possible explanation for the number of shells I spotted in Mal's gun.

Course I could be completely mistaken, as it has been a while since I've seen FF at all. I would like for others to comment on Mal's gun. The episode I remember where it is clearly shown is the ep where Mal gets hitched.

Just my thoughts. Am I way off base or not?

Jayne: "How big a room?"

SOUTHERNMERC

Friday, August 22, 2003 1:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by outlawtexan:
During the Civil War -- or, more accurately, the War of Northern Aggression to a good ol' Southern Boy like myself ;-)

Havta agree there OUTLAWTEXAN. 'Course, history is written by the victors.

Before anyone gets snippy, please examine the location of Civil War battlefields in the US. With the exception of two battles (one in Gettysburg, the other I don't recall the name of, blast), all combat took place in Southern states, including the famous "March to the Sea" by a certain Northern General (Sheridan).

The south was invaded by the north, and more than a century later, folks are still touchy about the subject (both sides). Talk about pivital point in history.

Jayne: "How big a room?"

JOHNNYREB

Friday, August 22, 2003 5:54 PM

The two battles were Gettysburg (July 1-3, 1863) and Sharpsburg/Antietam (September 12, 1862). There was also a little skirmish in St. Albans, VT. Confederates crossed the Canadian border and told the town that it was now Confederate occupied. Everyone laughed because no one could imagine the Confederate army in Vermont. So the Rebels salvaged their dignity, robbed the bank, and escaped north into Canada. For the most part though, the yankees WERE the aggressors.

Viva Firefly!

JOHNNYREB

Friday, August 22, 2003 5:55 PM

p.s. Sherman marched to he sea. Sheridan ravaged the Shenandoah Valley in '64.

Viva Firefly!

BLACKSTAR

Friday, August 22, 2003 9:03 PM

Upon close inspection of Mal's pistol in the opening of Heart of Gold, Mal's pistol seems toe of a decent size caliber, possibly .44, or more likely .45 being as this is a Western. The .45 slug had more than enough knock down power, and is old and reliable. I think Mal's sidearm does raise some interesting questions, though. I doesn't seem to be a revolver, for there is no rotating cylinder, but it doesn't seem to be a semi-auto either. I think possibly it uses some form of caseless ammunition, or otherwise it uses technology way off base from modern firearms. Most other weapons used are obviously modern day weapons adapted to look futuristic(or not) but obviously Mal's was a custom build. I wonder if there is a Firely propmaster out there who could post and reveal some of it's secrets... I was thinking about the sci-fi sound that the FF guns made, possibly they use some sort of magnetic firing technology, rail guns and the like, though
that wouldn't expalain why the guns still had cased ammunition...

P.S. Can anyone identify the carbine used by Book in War Stories? I can't seem to place it. Thanks!

Oh, my GOD! Who's flying this thing! Oh, right, that would be me...

ANTHONYT

Friday, August 22, 2003 11:18 PM

In reference to 1911 model .45s:

I know from experience that the 1911 model .45 and its close copies fire better once they have been broken in. This is not a matter of grime build up, but rather the smoothing out of components with a little wear.

There is a big industry involved in the transformation of the 1911 .45 into a superb sidearm. People pour hundreds or thousands of dollars into the weapons, and take them to competition. Even the most basic modifications to the gun involve replacing springs, adjusting tolerances, and smoothing out various parts to make the weapon more reliable and able to eat various makes of ammunition.

The fact that this industry exists suggests that the 1911 .45 is a good gun that could use some simple improvements, even right out of the box.

A revolver is typically harder to jam or gum up than a semiauto. It CAN happen (don't let anyone tell you revolvers are foolproof or jam-proof. Anything with moving parts can be broken.)

Without feed ramps and recoil springs and magazines and reciprocating slides... revolvers are MUCH simpler, usually have fewer moving parts, and are easier to maintain. They are also much more accepting of wide varieties of ammunition. (Case in point: My Makarov pistol wouldn't reliably feed some types of hollowpoint ammunition until I had it 'tuned' by a gunsmith.)

Also, it's important to remember some context. When the independants were fighting in the war, we saw assault rifles being used. I don't recall lever action rifles and revolvers in the war scenes.

It's later, when Mal and company are world hopping during peacetime, that we see REALLY old style guns. Why? Because they aren't fighting extensive engagements where hundreds and thousands of rounds are exchanged. They are fighting small engagements between handfuls of people.

Chances are, you don't need more than six bullets most times. Chances are, the fight has been won or lost before you've fired your third bullet. IF the fight isn't over in ten seconds or less, it's because someone has cover. And if you have cover, you have the opportunity to reload.

So, since capacity isn't as much of an issue in a small, short duration gunfight, reliability and simplicity takes precedence. Thus, revolvers become okay.

My take on things,

--Anthony

"If a fight lasts longer than a few seconds, then the fighters are either VERY good or VERY bad."

--Alexander Aguinaga

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