Mal and his people are just low-life thieves...

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 14:32
VIEWED: 39973
PAGE 17 of 17

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Originally posted by infamousX:
Heck, if one of the suicide bombers/pilots from 9/11 survivied the attack, would you have condemned onlookers for killing him?

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I'm not condemning anyone. Like I've said a number of times through out this thread.
I suspect that you'd condemn an Alliance officer for doing what Mal did though.

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Or the bombers in Spain, England, Jordan, or elsewhere?

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Well if you want to talk about situations that don't fit.

Let's go for a more cogent analogy, German airmen were taken prisoner by British civilians when bombers were shot down during the Blitz AFTER bombing innocent civilians.

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Are civilians truly expected to sit back and calmly consider the legal ramifications while they've just witnessed mass murder?

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Are they supposed to summarily decide in the heat of the moment, who is allowed to live and who is should die?
What if the mob turns on you, what then?

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The rule of engagement for American soldiers in Iraq is to respond to enemy fire, not instigate it.

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Something they ignore on a daily basis. British army units have come under fire from American troops, for instance. Do you think they gave them enemy fire to respond to?

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but clearly displays the different situation soldiers there face, and why the comparison between the two simply doesn't fit.

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Aircraft are being tasked with launching strikes on civilian areas all the time in Iraq. White Phosphorus was deployed in a civilian sector of Fallujah.
During the opening attacks in Baghdad buildings where civilians were hiding were targeted and levelled by missiles and strike aircraft. Civilians are being killed in Iraq; the situations are more similar than you're admitting.

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Mal said you'd see something different when he went to war, and he was then engaged in a war in which the enemy actively kills civilians in mass numbers. It's pretty hard to judge a man in that situation without having been in his shoes.

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Why must I keep repeating myself? I'm not judging him, I said his actions were wrong, that's very different from judging him, you are the one who is judging him by saying that he was right to do what he did.

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Besides, the idiot in the Alliance craft shoulda stayed hidden, because the crew certainly weren't military personnel. He shouldn't have expected any type of Geneva convention treatment from civilians who just witnessed the intentional murders of children and a preacher. Definitely a Darwin Award nominee.

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Firstly he was crawling out of wreckage completely unaware of the crew until just before Mal started shooting.
Secondly if he was unaware who the targets really are he'd have any reason to expect that reaction, how?

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

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Originally posted by citizen:

Something they ignore on a daily basis. British army units have come under fire from American troops, for instance. Do you think they gave them enemy fire to respond to?

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Yeah, four Canadian boys were killed by American fire while doing a training exercise in Afghanistan. Not saying that the Americans did it on purpose, but they didn't seem very sorry afterwards. They didn't even apologize to the families of the slain men, which was the least they could do. I mean, I know it was an accident, but they didn't have to take the blame, just say that they were sorry for what happened, and they couldn't even do that. That was what really got me about that one. And you can bet if some Canadian soldiers had accidentally killed Americans, there would have been hell to pay. Just the way the world works I guess.

"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."

"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."

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Originally posted by citizen:
I'm not condemning anyone. Like I've said a number of times through out this thread.
I suspect that you'd condemn an Alliance officer for doing what Mal did though.

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Really? You know what I would think now from 2 internet posts?

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Let's go for a more cogent analogy, German airmen were taken prisoner by British civilians when bombers were shot down during the Blitz AFTER bombing innocent civilians.

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Don't people drag effigies with nooses around their necks through the street every year to celebrate the foiling of the gunpowder plot?
The British preferred to bomb at night during world war 2, flying in zig zag patterns, which resulted in an large numbers of civilian casualties. Americans, on the other hand, had the idea to bomb during the daytime while flying in a straight pattern, resulting in more accurate bombing and less civilian deaths. Both sides inflicted intentional civilian casualties in the war, though, anyways.

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Are they supposed to summarily decide in the heat of the moment, who is allowed to live and who is should die?

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What has that got to do with the point of the debate? It's a hypothetical situation, in which the baby-killer is clearly defined.

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What if the mob turns on you, what then?

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If I'm the baby killer, I'd deserve it.

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Something they ignore on a daily basis. British army units have come under fire from American troops, for instance. Do you think they gave them enemy fire to respond to?

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Show me daily reports from credible resources. I'm not saying american troops are infallible, but wild accusations without proof are just that.

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Aircraft are being tasked with launching strikes on civilian areas all the time in Iraq. White Phosphorus was deployed in a civilian sector of Fallujah.

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All the time? Fallujah wasn't attacked for a substantial period of time, the military stayed outside the city in a holding pattern. But then some of them got in trouble when they were pushed in by politicians, who pushed the forces positioned outside to rescue, to which they lost one of their generals in protest.

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During the opening attacks in Baghdad buildings where civilians were hiding were targeted and levelled by missiles and strike aircraft. Civilians are being killed in Iraq; the situations are more similar than you're admitting.

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Civilians weren't targeted on purpose. The civilian casualties caused directly by american fire are less than 1% those caused by the Allies alone in Europe during WW2. However, that being said, if a US soldier showed up at the site of a US bombing with children's bodies lying on the ground, I wouldn't really call a summary execution on the spot wrong. Wrong time to be there.

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Why must I keep repeating myself? I'm not judging him, I said his actions were wrong, that's very different from judging him, you are the one who is judging him by saying that he was right to do what he did.

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Right and Wrong are judgements, dependent upon point of view. There are some basic principles everyone should know, but situations like these aren't as clear.

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Firstly he was crawling out of wreckage completely unaware of the crew until just before Mal started shooting.
Secondly if he was unaware who the targets really are he'd have any reason to expect that reaction, how?

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His awareness on his culpability is in question, and pretty much subjective opinion, but not his awareness of the presence of other people. He raised his hands in surrender, when he coulda ducked back down and hoped noone came to get him. Heck, modern pilots carry sidearms, even. Darwin Award nominee.

I grew up with a childhood friend from Afghanistan, whose father showed us pictures of the resistance against the soviets. So you can imagine my horror at knowing Osama was the obvious suspect, and the realization that my country would go to war there. I was against the Iraqi war. I dont like to get into fights, and I even think sports like boxing ar

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Originally posted infamousX:
Really? You know what I would think now from 2 internet posts? I don't remember making any assumptions about you. Wave good bye to the high ground.

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I was making a supposition, and plainly stated it as such. Which means it's not quite as bad as you putting words in my mouth and continually stating that is 'what I said'.

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Don't people drag effigies with nooses around their necks through the street every year to celebrate the foiling of the gunpowder plot?

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No, they don't actually.

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Didn't the British prefer to bomb at night during world war 2, flying in zig zag patterns, which resulted in an appalling number of civilian casualties. Americans, on the other hand, bombed during the daytime and flew in a straighter pattern, resulting in more accurate bombing and less civilian deaths.

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Didn't the Americans have a far larger air force and could afford to lose planes at a ridiculous rate? Oh and I think you’ll find the American air force switched to night bombing and British tactics later on.

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Don't act like your @#$% dont stink.

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And here we go with putting words and intentions in my mouth again. That's a comparable situation no matter which way you cut it, I could easily have said German civilians after the bombing of Dresden, but since I'm British I used an example closer to home.
I'm not saying 'our shit don't stink' mate, I'm stating a fact, one you seem woefully unable to argue against within context, since you dragged up a whole heap of stuff that had nothing to do with the point.

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I never said they should do that, but then I wouldn't consider them bad people if they just witnessed the murder of children.

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Okay I'll repeat myself again, maybe it'll get through to you this time. No. Neither would I. No
I wouldn't think they're bad people. They wouldn't be bad people necessarily. That doesn't make what they do automatically good. That is good people can still do bad things, and the things that they do can still be wrong.

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If I'm a baby killer, I'd deserve it.

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The goodies triumph over the baddies?

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Show me daily reports from credible resources. Otherwise, nothing more than an empty claim. Woulda been safer to say it happens on occaision.

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What like your wholly substantiated claim from 'a friend' which 'you can't talk about'. But since your holding me to a higher standard than yourself here’s a few of the instances that have made the mainstream press:

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He said: "There was a boy of about 12 years old. He was no more than 20 metres away when the Yank opened up.
"He had absolutely no regard for human life. I believe he was a cowboy. There were four or five that I noticed earlier and this one had broken off and was on his own when he attacked us. He'd just gone out on a jolly."

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,926237,00.html

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The video graphically illustrates US rules of engagement in practice. Unlike British troops, if the Americans perceive anybody or anything to be a threat it is attacked, particualrly in Fallujah, particularly in April.

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http://channel4.co.uk/news/2004/10/week_2/05_iraq.html
I’ve seen that video, there’s no obvious indication of weaponry, and I believe that children were amongst the casualties, so when’s this baby killer going to be brought to justice?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4504589.stm
There's more I've heard that I can't find links for, and more I've seen that isn't in the news.

Beyond that you know I can't show you daily reports, because they're military reports, not publicly released. If you think the rules of engagement are being rigorously enforced you need to learn some more.

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All the time? Fallujah wasn't attacked for a substantial period of time, the military stayed outside the city in a holding pattern. But then some of them got in trouble, and the politicians pushed them in, to which they lost one of their best generals in protest. Half t

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