My new Book's past theory...

POSTED BY: Amiton
UPDATED: Thursday, January 26, 2006 09:39
VIEWED: 8857
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AMITON

Sunday, January 22, 2006 10:56 PM

For the record, I'm (mostly) formerly of the Book was a former operative camp. However, I kept coming across the statement that Joss flat out said in an interview that he wasn't, point blank. I haven't personally seen the interview, but the possibility made me sit and think about new angles for a while.

What most of us usually hold to about the operative thing is Book's ident card and the fact that he knew so much about how operatives work and think (not to mention his ship, combat, firearms, and crime knowledge). I actually feel kind of stupid because this never occured to me before...

My new assertion is that Book ran smuggling ops much like our current beloved crew. The ident card? It's a forgery. Something Book had made to cover his tuckus when he got into trouble. Probably a scenario that..erm..fit the current crew very well for something along the lines of "the accompanying ship and crew are working undercover operations for high-ranking alliance." He likely even used to do a mission (or all of them) on the older Fireflys...the ones prior to the E-model with the extenders for stability =) It makes it pretty easy for him to help Mal through the murkier waters. Especially where operatives are concerned...

Book says in the BDM:

Select to view spoiler:

That means an operative. That's trouble you've not known before.

I don't know that an operative would know exactly how things look to the people on the other side of their work... They figure out how their quarry think and work around it. They do what they have to in order to get the job done. To know exactly what kind of trouble it is to deal with something like that really requires one to be on the recieving end, I think. Book wasn't an operative, but he seems to have run afoul of one before... Bear in mind, I don't remotely believe that operatives are a secret, or that most of them remotely resemble our friend from the BDM...his lack of rank and name is, shall we say, uncommon?

No, I don't think Book was an operative anymore. I think it's possible that whatever happened that related him to operatives may have been what sent him to the Abbey for two years and being isolated from the world for so long. I don't think he was necessarily in hiding, per se, but maybe the reason he stayed inside for so long was so that things would cool back down before he went back out into the world. And I also think that running back into his old lifestyle on his first day out of the Abbey would account for the crisis of faith he takes to Inara...

Oh, and Early...maybe he's seen some of [pre-shepherd] Book's work out in the 'verse and knows him at least by reputation. At least in my opinion, it all fits together *really* well, and it suits Joss' tendency to leave a really simple answer to a question that he seemed to answer by leading you to a totally different conclusion.

Amiton.

AERIN

Monday, January 23, 2006 6:04 AM

I've had very similar thoughts, but I still keep coming back to the belief that Book was originally in the Alliance employ, whether that means an Operative or high-ranking military officer. I can't see him ever doing the type of "petty criminal" activity that Mal's crew runs. It seems beneath him. Sometimes I get the sense that their business is amusing to him. I'm not sure I can describe it, but I get an egotistical vibe off of Book, especially when he reveals some crucial bit of knowledge. Much like the Operative - he's so humble he's actually prideful.

Book's understanding of how the Alliance works is certainly more than Mal has (who is no slouch), and it's not limited to the Operative. In The Message he knew what proper procedure should be for the Fed. If Book's knowledge of the Alliance is based on receiving-end experience, he's had a lot of that experience!

I'm not sure I believe an Operative wouldn't or couldn't know what it would be like for the people he's hunting. The Operative is very intelligent, and being hunted by another Operative could be part of training (actually, that would be a good idea). Book's a smart guy, and he also could have been out of the business long enough to see Operatives from another perspective.

If Book never worked for the Alliance, I could see two other possibilities. He could have been essentially an operative for the other side (which others have suggested), or he could have been some type of Kingpin-like crime boss. That would explain a lot of knowledge of criminal techniques and the Alliance's response. He could have gained his fighting abilities by working his way up to that position. It would also explain why he seems to find Mal's level of thievery amusing.

I like your arguements and I agree that it's a mistake to get convinced by the ID cards.

Jayne: I once hit a guy in the neck from 500 yards with a bent scope. Don't that count upstairs?
Book: Oh, it'll be taken into consideration.
Jayne: You made that sound kind of ominous.

FLETCH2

Monday, January 23, 2006 7:50 AM

If I can use a StarWars analogy for a moment. I think the Operative is like Vader, the guy the ruling elite sends to eliminate problems. Book I think was like Tarkin, a high up functionary of the Alliance, perhaps one high enough as to have once given guys like the Operative their orders.

If he was something like the Governer of a sector (or whatever the Alliance equivalent was) then he would know an awful lot about the was things like the Federal law was organized because he would probably it would have come under his juristiction. As to the ID. If he left on good terms there is no reason to think that he wouldn't still retain all kinds of influence within the Alliance that he simply chooses not to use.

Imagine you are a US navy vessel that gets a call from a yacht in trouble and on board is a former secretary of Defense or Admiral with a gunshot wound. Chances are the Captain will do all he can to save the guy, after all even if he's no longer in power it looks bad if someone important dies in the care of your command, who knows what high ranking friends he might still have?

AERIN

Monday, January 23, 2006 6:18 PM

Would you expect Tarkin to kick ass in hand to hand combat? Perhaps when he was young? I could see that as a possibility.

BOWIE

Monday, January 23, 2006 6:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
If I can use a StarWars analogy for a moment. I think the Operative is like Vader, the guy the ruling elite sends to eliminate problems. Book I think was like Tarkin, a high up functionary of the Alliance, perhaps one high enough as to have once given guys like the Operative their orders.

If he was something like the Governer of a sector (or whatever the Alliance equivalent was) then he would know an awful lot about the was things like the Federal law was organized because he would probably it would have come under his juristiction. As to the ID. If he left on good terms there is no reason to think that he wouldn't still retain all kinds of influence within the Alliance that he simply chooses not to use.

Imagine you are a US navy vessel that gets a call from a yacht in trouble and on board is a former secretary of Defense or Admiral with a gunshot wound. Chances are the Captain will do all he can to save the guy, after all even if he's no longer in power it looks bad if someone important dies in the care of your command, who knows what high ranking friends he might still have?

I'v had much teh same idea! I too think he is some kind of high up official, the kind to have given orders. I was thinking he might have left he alliance after they did something bad, not creating the reavers exactly, just something that he couldn't hold with. I think even before being a shepeard he had a consience. I think he may have joined the church to be "somewhere he wasn't a threat," and then surprisingly found God. Its just my own little bit, of mucht he same theory.

If you play Nationstates.net check out the region Firefly.

AMITON

Monday, January 23, 2006 6:45 PM

I personally like the idea of Book being an operative =) I think it opens all kinds of good stroy arcs. I was more or less responding to the statement that Joss (may have) said Book wasn't an operative and that I felt like a moron for not thinking of the ident card as a forgery.

A crime boss, definitely a possibility that works out about the same lines, and Book's old enough for it to be plausible. I don't think Book is above Mal's line of work, but I do think there's a certain smug, paternal kind of patronage when Book gives advice. Along those lines, though, if Book was in that business for a long time, then his experience and the difference in age between Book and Mal would cover that. *shrug*

I can't buy into Book being a high-ranking officer in the Alliance. I can buy him being Alliance (although that still causes all manners of problems with him not turning the crew in fast-like rather than going through a crisis of faith about it), and even being a retired operative or operative oversight of some kind, but he doesn't fit the mold for me to let my mind fit him into flag-level military operations and command-and-control. Not to mention that Book's line about high-ranking officials not doing field work had a disparaging tone to it (in my opinion...there were much more euphemistic ways to have put that).

Amiton.

STAKETHELURK

Monday, January 23, 2006 7:13 PM

Quote:
Not to mention that Book's line about high-ranking officials not doing field work had a disparaging tone to it (in my opinion...there were much more euphemistic ways to have put that).

I believe it's Simon who actually says that line in "Ariel," to the Alliance officer who captured them. Makes you wonder how Simon knew that sort of stuff?

It is an important point to consider, though.

As for Book, it's plausible that he could be an Operative, but it's plausible that he was something else entirely (Maybe ex-law enforcement? That'd explain his knowledge of a crimelord like Adlai Niska). What I like is that Joss has created a thematic parallel between Book and the Operative in the BDM, but he's never made any explicit confirmation. He's answered the question without answering it. Right now it looks kinda like Book was an Operative, but if Joss later shows us that he was something else entirely, there'd be no contradiction of continuity. That's some good writing!

PIZMOBEACH

Monday, January 23, 2006 7:41 PM

I think Book definitely was employed by the Alliance but not as an Operative, more of an Interrogator Specialist, the kind of professional that Operatives might take someone to that they needed information from...any way necessary. Probably sound like a real stretch but I think Niska did the same thing, had the same "job," during the war. They both make Shanyu references, which I think is more than just a coincidence - reading Shanyu may have been something like required reading for their position. In the same episode Book makes a reference to knowing of Adelai Niska and his rep from before his time with the crew.
If he was on the same level and used the same sadistic brutality as Niska it also explains a lot about why he's chosen the path he's on now - extreme guilt from a necessarily suppressed conscience. Unlike Book, Niska's just sick no matter how many layers you peel back, but Book was decent and was able to rationalize his behavior, keep it down until after the war because he was brainwashed (not literally) and he was being a good soldier.
It also explains River's read of, "I don't care half a hump if you're innocent or not..."
It explains why he knows so much about crime having dealt with criminals.
It explains Early knowing *what* Book was, and almost saying, “That ain’t no Preacher,” with a bit of distaste, like even he was a bit put-off by what Book did.
It also explains Book not wanting to tell Mal about his past, "I'm like Niska.. I tortured many a fine man... some Independent soldiers even..." just not something you would ever feel necessary to tell someone, let alone Mal.

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TAYEATRA

Monday, January 23, 2006 7:51 PM

I agree that Book knows too much about the Alliance inner workings to just have been a smuggler type or criminal. All that stuff in the Message just wouldn't fit.
However, to the people who think he's an operative... think again...

Operatives don't exist, like the Academy scientists. There is no way that Juble Early could have identified (at least partially) the Shepard if he had been an operative.

As for high level military... possibly but i'm not convinced they would have let him go if he'd been 'given' that much information.

Also, he was really cut up about killing the Fed in the pilot episode.

I'm thoroughly confused about it. Fingers crossed that Joss gived us an explanation soon because every time I think of a possibility my brain shoots it down.

Taya

Dark Angel, Firefly, Buffy, Angel, Enterprise, Farscape... anything else you'd like to cancel?

PDCHARLES

Monday, January 23, 2006 8:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tayeatra:

Operatives don't exist, like the Academy scientists. There is no way that Juble Early could have identified (at least partially) the Shepard if he had been an operative.

SPOILERS!!!

Took the words right out of my mouth Pizmo and Tay.

The Operative says, in the movie, "Like this facility, I do not exist." (correct me if this is not it )

Jubal's reply in OIS seems to have came from Books rep or Jubals research on 'em. An operative is unknown. ( but i know... it could be possible Jubal's got connections )

As far as the ID card:
it could have been forged. Seems the cap'n and crew aquired security cards relatively quickly in "Ariel" for an Alliance facility.

I do not think an operative would have a card. ( hand was used in movie ) ...and he was simply id'ed as an operative with corresponding rights

or Book just was of a high rank in the Alliance ( maybe there is a good faction of the Alliance )

So, I go along with some of u stating that he was heavily involved with the Alliance but not an operative. Just think of how many bureaus and departments our gov'ts have....

I still would love more info from the man himself... and hope some of his (books) old cronies from the past learn of his death and come out from the shadows lookin' for revenge

U gonna be smart here Riva?!?

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