Evolution Sucks!

POSTED BY: dougp59
UPDATED: Monday, July 27, 2026 16:36
VIEWED: 32323
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SHEPARD

Sunday, January 22, 2006 5:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Actually if we follow through on that argument the only thing I can state with certainty is that *I* exist. I think, therefore I am. I cannot prove that you exist any more than I can prove that God exists. All I have is slightly more evidence that you exist, but even that could be self delusion.

Actually, all you have is slightly more evidence that you exist, but that could be a more egotistic self delusion.

Hell. It's Special.

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, January 22, 2006 5:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Since the numbers comprising the real world finite set are symbolic constructs of real world quanitities, and apples are such real world quanitities, it is mere narrow mindness that says you can't prove 1+1=2. You have to ignore the fact that they are symbolic representations of real world things, which is why why they're called real world numbers.

Now if you said -1 + -1 = -2 then you'd have something, since it's impossible, as far as we know, to have negative quantities, so the number are meaningless outside of mathematics.

What about negative charge on a battery? What about negative flow of electricity? Negative acceleration? There is a number of things that have negative value in the real world.

And from the wife. Do not put metal things in the frying pan. Or at least I shouldn't... apparently

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CITIZEN

Sunday, January 22, 2006 5:48 PM

Quote:
What about negative charge on a battery? What about negative flow of electricity? Negative acceleration? There is a number of things that have negative value in the real world.

None of things are really negative, that is less than nothing, they are called negative as an opposite to what we call a positive, but they aren't really negative.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, January 22, 2006 6:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

None of things are really negative, that is less than nothing, they are called negative as an opposite to what we call a positive, but they aren't really negative.

The whole point was to find a number that was negative in the real world. I showed that they exist.

The whole point is to abstract beyond quantity. Once you do that, you'll see I'm right.

Please stop thinking in terms of things, objects.

EDIT TO ADD: Math is all about abstraction. This is what I think that you're not seeing.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CITIZEN

Sunday, January 22, 2006 6:45 PM

I'm seeing perfectly fine, those aren't negative numbers in the real world, they aren't something less than 0. They're a further abstraction to make things easier for us to understand.

You can have a negative balance on your account but that doesn't mean that you have negative money, it's an abstraction for showing that you have a positive debt to the bank.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, January 22, 2006 7:08 PM

@citizen:
To get back on topic.

You really don't seem to understand that you are applying mathematics and not actually doing mathematics. There is a whole world of difference.

Using your apple example only proves that 1 apple plus 1 apple gives you 2 apples. But, what about pears? What about cars? Do we have to always count in terms of apples or something else?

Basically, mathematics is about abstracting beyond the need for having something sitting there in front of you to count.

So, you're not seeing fine.

You're not seeing that proving something mathematically is very different than giving an example. Look any university text on mathematics and you'll see what I mean.

Regarding negative numbers (which is off topic to the discussion of 1 + 1 = 2).

I have shown that negative numbers exist and have meaning in the real world. You are just giving more examples of the application of negative numbers.

What you have to see is that mathematics is beyond example, it is its own thing. And when applying mathematics, there will be different opinions about its interpretation. You interpret these examples in terms of not being able to have negative something. When there actual meaning is what you stated ie owing money.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CITIZEN

Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:50 PM

I did this stuff at university as well Sigma, please stop patronising me.

I know that mathematics grew out of trade, meaning that it's origins are in the real world, and it is wholly appropriate to draw comparisions between mathematics and the real world.

Apples, pears, cars, it makes absolutly no difference, and you know it, apples can be a place holder, just like an x in algebra.

You're negative numbers are not really negative in the real world, they're a different way of expressing a wholly positive number that is opposed to another positive number. For the bank example it would be just as valid to say you owe negative money to the bank if you're in credit, or to say that when you're in credit you have positive credit, and when your in debt you have positive debt.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, January 23, 2006 12:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

I did this stuff at university as well Sigma, please stop patronising me.

Patronising you was not my intent. If you took it that way that I now suggest that you go back and re-read my posts with that in mind. I'm not trying to be snide here, I'm just pointing out that you have not taken my posts as intended. Thus, you have clearly received a message other than I intended.

But, if you did this stuff at university, in all seriousnes, and with all due respect, you should know better. Mathematics as a disipline did historically grow out of a need from the "private sector." But it has become something very different than just counting apples.

Clearly, if you think that 1 apple plus 1 apple equals 2 apples is a proof for 1 + 1 = 2, then either it has been far too long since you've taken a math class/done any actual mathematics, and/or you didn't understand what the prof. was saying, and/or you weren't taught properly and/or... Because, that apple "proof" is no mathematical proof at all.

Mine and the linked proof above are mathematical proofs.

Sorry, but that is just the fact of the matter.

If you don't believe me, just email a math prof. at you local university and ask him/her if your apple "proof" is a rigorous mathematical proof of 1 + 1 = 2. I know that you'll be sorely disappointed.

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

I know that mathematics grew out of trade, meaning that it's origins are in the real world, and it is wholly appropriate to draw comparisions between mathematics and the real world.

I'm not saying that it isn't appropriate to draw analogies from the real world to understand the concepts of mathematics. Quite to the contrary, I beleive that it is necessary to do so, as a child's mind isn't developed enough to understand a rigorous mathematical proof as above.

I think that there is a strong possibility that you are confusing the pedagogy of mathematics with mathematics itself.

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Apples, pears, cars, it makes absolutly no difference, and you know it, apples can be a place holder, just like an x in algebra.

Prove it.

Prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that 1 something plus another 1 of that something gives you 2 of those somethings.

Prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that 1 something plus 1 something else, gives you 2 things.

This is where mathematics comes in. It generalizes such things so that we know that the statement that you just made is actually true. If you don't have a rigorous proof, then it might not be true in all cases.

But, because many many people did these things long ago, we know it to be true and take it for granted that it is true now adays.

ie
You can say something is true all you want, but it doesn't make it so. Prove it to me. In mathematics we can do this... in society, maybe not. But that is a different thread all together

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

You're negative numbers are not really negative in the real world, they're a different way of expressing a wholly positive number that is opposed to another positive number. For the bank example it would be just as valid to say you owe negative money to the bank if you're in credit, or to say that when you're in credit you have positive credit, and when your in debt you have positive debt.

I actually stated this. But, you have to understand that this is applied mathematics and not pure mathematics. The proof of 1 + 1 = 2 is pure matematics.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

FLETCH2

Monday, January 23, 2006 6:48 AM

1+1 doesn't obviously equal 2 in the real world. I add a pile of sand to another pile of sand, how many piles of sand do I have? I have one pile of sand!

There are mathmatical proofs for all kinds of "obvious" things. While it seems 1 +1 is OBVIOUSLY 2 the pure maths proof for it is quite involved as is the one for the number of degrees in a triangle etc.

The question can be asked if this is a nescessary abstraction given that in most real world situations it appears 1 + 1 = 2 but I suppose mathematicians need something to do with their time.

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, January 23, 2006 6:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:

1+1 doesn't obviously equal 2 in the real world. I add a pile of sand to another pile of sand, how many piles of sand do I have? I have one pile of sand!

This is the interpretation thing that I mentioned above. Although it is true that you still have only one pile of sand, you do have more sand.

One could also insist that you only have piles of sand that are of equal value. Then you would have twice as much sand.

But, how are you interpreting add? Here you seem to be interpreting it as actually pouring the second pile of sand on the other pile of sand. Where we could just as easily have addition meaning adding to your ownership, a pile of sand.

Thus, if you own one pile of sand and then "add" (ie purchase) a pile of sand, then you would have two piles of sand.

The interpretation is quite important, and necessary to properly apply mathematics. If one doesn't have the rules laid out before hand, then you can get to some pretty wacky conclusions. ie Your 1 + 1 = 1.

Practially speaking though, sand is sold in yards (I believe), not in piles. So, volume is used.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:

There are mathmatical proofs for all kinds of "obvious" things. While it seems 1 +1 is OBVIOUSLY 2 the pure maths proof for it is quite involved as is the one for the number of degrees in a triangle etc.

The question can be asked if this is a nescessary abstraction given that in most real world situations it appears 1 + 1 = 2 but I suppose mathematicians need something to do with their time.

I would think that if you ask any physicist or chemist or biologist, that they would tell you that these abstractions are quite necessary.

I think that you'd be suprised just how often group theory, which is very abstract, shows up in real world things. ie classification of molecules, orbital calulations, etc.

Analysis is also very important in "higher level" probability and statistics. Which allows us to do many many things.

Without numberical analysis we wouldn't be able to build suspension bridges, etc.

Just because mathematics is far removed from reality, doesn't mean that it is useless, nor a waste of time.

Hell, where would science be if it weren't for the language of mathematics?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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